Gem Pouch Size Progression

[Nurvus]

From level 1 to 5 we have 5 slots in our gem pouch.
At level 6 we have 6 slots.
At level 7 we have 7 slots, etc...

And I was told it goes on like that for a long while.

My opinion is that I think the progression is a little steep...

Let's see:
- We can only have 3 identical gems in a gem pouch.
- We only make decent use - usually - of recastable/aura/passive gems as long as we leave 1 slot open for "use and drop" gems.
So that means 3 such gems for free users, 4 for standardl and 5 for premium accounts.

Now:
- Between 5 and 8 gem slots, the game is somewhat "too simple" - gem-wise.
- At 15+ gem slots, we start losing strategic value by giving in to sheer luck...
Even as a premium with 5 gems in play and 1 free slot for the draws, we'll have at least 12/3 = 4 different gems waiting.

Even if the maximum "identical gem" limit increases, that still penalizes Dark Knights and Paladins.

Dark Knights and Paladins - who make most use of Auras, will be forced to have 3x the Auras they want to draw, to have better chances of drawing them, but then when they have the Aura in play, the other ones are just trash gems...

If they decide to have useful gems all along (only 1 version of each aura), they'll need pure luck to draw them among the other 12+ gems...

On a side note, I suppose that's where Wizards get the most benefit (They will be able to use 3x each of the "best Direct Damage" gems of each magic type with improved effect, while the other classes will be more easily limited to 3x the best of their 1 (necromancer, angel, druid) or 2 (magician, warlock, priest) magic types...

But even Wizards might prefer to change between pouches to adapt to the enemy's resistances/auras/etc...

-------------------------------
So I think there shouldn't ever be any more than 20 gem slots in a pouch.

Or if there are, we will definitely need that "slot filler" gem that never gets drawn.

But don't make it too rare or too expensive because it'll be an essential tool to making most characters (specially non-staff users) playable at higher levels...
-------------------------------

I may be wrong in much of this, but it's the feeling I get.

Any comments?

I do have been noticing the trend of gem pouch sizing and as a caster I am starting to get worried.

Not only do gems increase in cost each level, but the number of gems I must put into my pouch also increases with each level. So I end up spending more and more and more gold to keep up, but unlike physical damage classes I do not necessarily get extra utility or damage out of my increased spending.

Say I have a Premium Account (6 Gem Slots) and am a Warlock (Death Magic)
Say I level RED, BLACK, BLUE and GREEN/WHITE MAGIC.

1 = DD Aura
2 = DD Recastable #1
3 = DD Recastable #2
4 = Healing Recastable
5 = Mana/Energy Recovery
6 = Single Use Gem

So presuming I use a staff and put my Aura as Gem #1, I'd want the following gems in my pouch.

1 Aura
2 DD Recastables
1 Healing Recastable
1 Mana Energy Recovery
1 Single Use Gems

That is a total of 7 gems.

Now this would be the minimum, so lets see how many I could use w/o losing too much efficiency.

1 Aura (Gem Slot 1)
4 DD Recastables (2 Red, 2 Black)
2 Healing Recastable
3 Mana Energy Recovery
3 Single Use Gem
Total: 13

The MAXIMUM I could use w/o resorting to lower level gems would be:
1 DD Aura
6 DD Recastable (3 Red, 3 Black)
3 Healing Recastable (3 Green/White)
3 Mana Recovery Gems (3 Blue)
15 Single Use Gems (3 Red DD, 3 Red DOT, 3 Black DD, 6 Black DOT)
Total: 28

However this is not practical since I'd need extra recovery gems to balance out the mass of mana using gems, but there is only 1 equivalent level gem of that type. To force a caster to use lower level gems is like forcing an archer to use his lv 5 arrows on his Lv 25 bow. I don't see those classes being forced to use inferior equipment as they increase in level. The only solution would then be to level other magics and use their offensive spells too, but having to level more than 3 or 4 magics is extreme. Casters already have too many skills to level compared to non-casters.

Lets Compare a Warlock to a 2H Fighter, and an Archer required skills.

Warlock
- Offense: Staff, Red Magic, Black Magic, Diabolism, 2 Passives ==> 5
- Defense: Suiting, Green Magic AND/OR White Magic, Sorcery ==> 3-4
- Support: Blue Magic, Mind Bending, 3 Passives ==> 5
- TOTAL: 13-14

Archer
- Offense: Archery, 4 Passives ==> 5
- Defense: Suiting, Green Magic, White Magic, Sorcery ==> 4
- Support: Grey/Blue Magic, Mind Bending, Wizardry ==> 3
- TOTAL: 12

2H Fighter
- Offense: Slashing/Piercing/Crushing, 3 Passives ==> 4
- Defense: Suiting, Parry, White Magic, Green Magic, Sorcery ==> 5
- Support: Grey/Blue Magic, Mind Bending, Wizardry ==> 3
- TOTAL: 12

This is not meant to indicate that one class is better or has it easier than an other. What is clear is that:

1) forcing Casters to delve into more colors of magic to have level equivalent spells is unfair, since other classes weapons are associated with a single skill. (Melee fighters have 3, but can chose to use only one w/o much trouble)

2) the Melee fighters and Archers also suffer from having HUGE gem pouches since they often cannot even fill the pouch.

SOLUTIONS

The best solution would be to allow people to purchase 50% Escape gems (With 0 skill requirements, and with no color) for a low price, AND make it so no gem in a pouch = smaller gem pouch. The only issue with this would be that leveling Sorcery and other magic gem skills high would no longer be required.

Another solution would be to have higher level gems take up more than one gem pouch spot. This would mean that training the Magic Gem skills would still be important, since you'd need 10 Sorcery and 10 gem pouch spots to fit 5 Green/White 2X gems, but you wouldn't need to worry about gem pouches being too large.

Example (Assuming # Gem Pouch Slots = MAX(Level, 5))
Level 15-24 Gems take up 2X Slots ==> 15 Slots / 2 per Gems = 7.5 Gems
Level 25-39 Gems take up 3x Slots ==> 25 Slots / 3 per Gems = 8.33 Gems
Level 40-59 Gems Take up 4x Slots ==> 40 Slots / 4 per Gems = 10 Gems
Level 60+ Gems Take up 5x Slots ==> 60 Slots / 5 per Gems = 12 Gems

This is much more manageable gem pouch size progression.

don't use recastable gems

/thread

This is just my opinion on the matter.

I like it the way it is.

The pouch size progression is meant to be a hindrance of a sort because it makes you stop and really think about your pouch set up. And even then, its not easy to figure out a setup that works great. It takes real player skill (and not just levels, equipment, etc.) to make an effective pouch.

There's already a great deal of room for experimentation with pouch setups to figure out what works for each person and compliments their build. I believe it may actually get easier to build an effective pouch as more types of gems are added to the game.

The reason I think that is because it was much more difficult to build a useful pouch before DoTs were added to the gem lineup. I think this trend will only continue.

Maximum pouch size is 50 slots. I think that's right on par also because the gem system is emulating a table top card game. Often the deck sizes for such games are about 50 cards. And usually rules are such that you cannot have more than 3 or 4 of the same card in each deck. The gem system in Nod happens to be limited to 3 so I think that's fair. Would it hurt to bump it up to 4? Probably not.

As far as the dark knight/paladin problem, I am confidant that Jeff will be adding many more types of auras in the future. I know he has already stated that haste auras and vampiric auras are in the works.

As far as suggestions I can offer right now to help improve your pouch setup I will say this: as your pouch gets larger you should use the highest level gems that are efficient considering your max mana/energy, but also incorporate the lower level versions of the lines that work best in your setup. This will allow you to keep the same type of setup, even if you're not always drawing the best gems.

[Nurvus]

Originally Posted by Phatlewt

don't use recastable gems

/thread

Recastables are not the problem.
If you do not use a Staff, will you place 3 Flare Up Auras in your pouch?
What happens when you draw it and then start drawing the other 2?...

-----------------------
I think the sollution is quite simple.

A caster is very likely to start getting unplayable from the point she gets to the 30 gem pouch slots...

A non-caster will lose less from not having efficient spellcasting, but will also have even bigger issues here.

Potential Sollutions:

1 - Empty slots beyond the 5th and beyond the last gem in the pouch are not included in the "random" draw.

The first condition is to ensure youl can still draw Escape Potions when you don't have all the first 5 slots filled, but if you fill the first 5 slots, only slots before the last gem will count as "Escape Potions".

This also ensures a stronger code because it just draws everything up to the last gem.
Any "empty" slot before that is an Escape Potion. No complications.

2 - Slower Progression.
I cannot even fathom the use of having any more than 30 gem slots in a pouch...

I'd say 5 initial gem slots, then +1 every 5 levels until level 50 (total of 15), then +1 every 10 levels until level 100 (total of 20)

The first sollution is the most reasonable towards Dark Knights and Paladins, because duplicate Aura gems in a pouch are 100% useless... It'll just make such classes heavily penalized.

So the only way to let those classes' bonuses remain reasonably useful is to let such classes make use of Aura gems without getting a major penalty. And that is to let having 1 of each Aura gem (no duplicates) in a pouch, with a decent chance of drawing them...

3 - Major idea!!! Echo: Rare Gem that when randomly selected to the draw, makes you draw the gem immediately before it in the pouch instead.
Having more than 1 of such gem in sequence would work.
Example:
You have Candleburn -> Echo (1) -> Echo (2) -> Echo (3) -> Etc...

a) If you draw Echo 1, it instead draws the one before = Candleburn.
b) If you draw Echo 2, it instead draws the one before = Echo 1, wich puts you in a)
c) If you draw Echo 3, it instead draws the one before = Echo 2, wich puts you in b)

If Candleburn is drawn, the gems are treated as empty slots, or jump you to the one before Candleburn (if it was the first gem, jump to the last)

This would be specially useful for Auras later on, by making you have more chance to draw
-----------------------
I can't stress enough that - unlike other gems - having more than 1 of the same Aura Gem in a pouch turns into a 100% hindrance when you finally draw it.

Recastable are useful for something. Usually slightly weaker and/or more costly per use, but you can use them until you draw something else, even if it is another recastable (that can be used immediately, unlike the 10 sec delay on the recastable you just used).

Passive "recastables" like Minor Regen or Gradual Repair are also useful until you find something else.

2 or 3 of the same aura is pointless...
-----------------------
I can also see that maybe Jeff is going to make very powerful spells and he wants the casters to be "unable" to draw such spells on a regular basis, instead making such powerful spells a "bonus" that comes in the middle of several "reasonable" gems.

Even if it is so, it only makes combat more luck based, in detriment of strategy.
It is - to me - preferrable to have such "spells" be less powerful to make regular draws of such spells balanced.

-------------------
Again, I understand Wizards in specific need to have something going for them.
And that would be the ability to use all direct damage with a considerable bonus.
If gem slots are too little, or easily shortened with special gems and whatnot, Wizards will lose most of their benefits - I think - and as such the balance between the amount of such "special gems" (Echo - the gem that makes you draw the one before - and Void - the gem that never gets drawn, and whatever other gems may come) and the amount of gem slots in a pouch needs to be carefully picked.

For every such special gem type (since you can have 3 of each) 5 additional slots (beyond 20) are reasonable.

But otherwise, it's a little too much...

-----------
Another alternative to the "presumed" purpose of 50 gemslots, is creating Unique Gems.

Such would be exceptionally powerful gems of wich you can only have 1 in each pouch.

This, as an alternative to having 50 slots to make it harder to draw the "best gems".

[Glitchless]

There's another thread or two on this. Pouch size increases are not meant to be a benefit. The gem system is designed (although it is not complete and there are not enough different gems yet) for a 50 slot pouch. Consider yourself lucky that you don't start the game with 50 slots like you used to.

[Nurvus]

Does that mean that Aura users (Paladins and Dark Knights) will be either (or both) Unreliable (having lots of different Aura Gems in their pouches) or (and) Penalized (since after you have between 3 (free) and 5 (premium) Auras in play, any more aura draws will very likely be useless...) ??

Nevertheless, I'll post about those special gem ideas in the suggestions.

I admit I did not know that it was capped at 50. Any clue as to the progression? Ie does it go +1/Lv to 50 or does it taper off?

Also 50 gems is still far to many, how would the non-caster classes like it if I told them...that they will randomly draw a weapon 5 levels lower to fight with every so often? I doubt they'd appreciate it. Bottom line is, sure make pouch set ups challenging, sure make it fun, but don't make it unfair.

It's not fair to casters, or Dark knights or Pallys. And I'm sure even the non-caster classes won't like it much after a certain point.

Maximum pouch size is 50 slots. I think that's right on par also because the gem system is emulating a table top card game. Often the deck sizes for such games are about 50 cards. And usually rules are such that you cannot have more than 3 or 4 of the same card in each deck. The gem system in Nod happens to be limited to 3 so I think that's fair. Would it hurt to bump it up to 4? Probably not.

Hmm a table top game where not everyone is playing with the same rules. So Mr. Fighter starts with a full hand, customized as he sees fit w/o any randomness, but Mr. Caster has to draw randomly? There is no way you can compare this game to a table top card game.

A fighter doesn't come to battle with his old weapon , he brings the latest and greatest weapon he's got...why should anyone else have to come with less. I'd be equally opposed if archers hand to put arrows in their quiver. IE 50 Slots, no more than 3 of any arrow, each attack draws a random arrow.

Wouldn't it just be simpler to allow caster with staffs to draw the gems in the order they are put in the pouch? Either naturally or with a skill. Say every 5 pts in "Foresight" allows you to draw, in order +1 gems when equipped. So Foresight 15 would mean you'd start with 1 (from Sleight of Hand) and pick 3 more in order from your pouch. This would cap at 20 gems in order at Level 100.

[Nurvus]

In tabletop card games, usually you don't play alone, or at least don't draw 1 card at a time.

Anyway, for pure casters, it may not be all that bad with the promissed increase in gem variety.

For meleers/archers, there isn't that much of a problem, since they don't actually depend that much on casting.
Probably filling it with DoTs or Healing.

The bottom line is that meleers and archers don't have preference for any magic type.
They don't give bonuses to their effects.

Magicians give bonuses to blue and red, but to all effects. SO they'll be using a decent variety of spells, like DoTs, Direct Damage, Stun, Mesmer, etc... with improved effect.

Warlocks get bonus to Black and Red Direct Damage. So it's somewhat okay.

Wizards get bonus to all direct damage, yet it is lower than Warlocks. They get, however, less penalized by the size of the pouch, since they can put all kinds of high power gems.

By the way, Warlocks aren't limited to Death magic, they just get bonus to their direct damage effects. They can still use others.

However, the big problem is the Paladins and Dark Knights (boy, I'm annoying)

Having more than 5 auras (as a premium player) in your pouch, penalizes you in the long run.
Since you will not be playing with more than 5 auras. The excess is trash draw...

I agree that it appear being a Hybrid like a DK or Pally seems to get the shaft, I can always offer you some of your own advice...you don't need to use auras, you just get a bonus if you do.

As to your claim that I could use different gems, let me say that I do not envy Wizards since to get the most out of their class they need to level many different colors of magic, BUT by your logic an archer doesn't need to use a bow, he could use red magic too. SURE he could, but it would be wrong if he had to use Red Magic to remain on par with others. To tell any caster that he/she should level all magic is further indication of an existing imbalance. Why should one play style need to level 5-7 more skills to remain effective.

While I don't mind discussing this for hours it appear that we did receive a response from Jeff and he has made it clear that it is WAI and the system and size will not be changed, so lets hope that extra gems will fix the imbalance.

Everyone is hurt by gem pouch size, not just DK and Paladin.

Yes, casters can just fill up on DD gems and burn them as they come out, but many people enjoy the effects of DoT gems better. Those that get a DD bonus, of course, do not. However, they would still be greatly assisted by the Red Magic Aura, and getting those out is going to be pretty difficult, especially if they only have three.

My solution to the problem.

If you're using DD, fill up your pouch with three each of the four highest level Red Magic Auras you can equip (or, if your pouch is not at 50, around 20% should do fine). The rest should be DD spells, three each of highest levels available. Have a second gem pouch empty for escapes, just in case. Third gem pouch should consist purely of heals - not just health, but energy and mana heals as well. About 50% health, 25% mana and 25% energy should do fine for a caster balanced perfectly between mana and energy.

If you're using DoT, fill up with three each of the highest level DoT's you can. Again, second gem pouch is empty, third has the heals.

Melee/Ranged classes: You should only need two pouches. One is split between heals (50%) and damage (50%). Throw in some auras if you think you need it. Your main focus should be on your weapon damage, not your magic.

Paladin/Dark Knight: Three gem pouches. Pouch 1: Auras. Three each of the highest levels of each aura you will be using. Pouch 2: Heals. For Paladins I would suggest ignoring energy use completely, except to restore mana. So about 60% heals, 30% mana heals and 10% energy heals should do fine. Pouch 3: Escape.

There will be lots of trash gems with the Paladin/DK idea, as well as DoT casters. But it's the best way to ensure that you get gems you need when you need them.

[Nurvus]

Quote: "(...), you lose all gems in play when switching between pouches."

If you are premium, the maximum Auras you can have in play are 6.

But usually, you want to make use of other kinds of gems as well...

Like healing or DoTs or whatever.
So, if you want to use "One Use" gems, you'll have 1 empty slot in play (5 Auras max)

If you have 50 gem slots, how many Auras are you going to put in your Gem Pouch?

a) 5? -> 1/10 chance to draw an Aura. and 1/50 chance to draw the aura you want.
b) 5x3? -> 3/10 chance to draw an Aura (reasonable chance), and 3/50 to draw the aura you want, but after you have them in play, you will have 10 useless Aura gems amidst the 45 remaining that will keep being providing you with "empty" draws...

And it's not like Auras are game breaking effects that when entering play change the tide of battle -_-

Considering the above, if a Dark Knight or Paladin is actually meant to have a pouch filled with Auras of all kinds - and just stare at the weapon swings after drawing the 6 Auras - then I'll say no more.

--------------
Alternatively, one of the magic skills could cause the first X gems in your pouch to come into play automatically.

1 with 10 points in that skill, 2 with 50, 3 with 100. (+1 with a Staff equipped).

well, there is an obvious fact that unless Jeff is completely oblivious to what he is doing in the game, he has an idea for how he wants the combat system to work using what he has implemented. I am personally not a huge fan of pure randomization, and would love to end up having some kind of control over what I'm going to be drawing. I think there runs a huge risk of making casting completely generic if you have to have all spell schools just to have enough gems to fill your pouch. If that is the case, what is the point of even having a bunch of schools? Why not just have "MAGIC" and make it 6x times harder to level and govern all magic sets =P?

Regardless I would like to see it evolve into its final stage, whatever that may be, or at least get a good idea of what that final stage is going to be like.

I'd just like to know the ETA of all these new/additional gems.

My only complaint is when I'm grouped, but the time I get any decent gems out of my pouch with the auras and such the creature we are fighting usually is already dead or close to it. The only time I feel I get up to full power with my casting is during a Boss fight or when solo.

Any chance to make it so Staff users can have more than one gem starting out at higher levels? Like perhaps 2 at level 20 and 3 at 40 or something like that? Just to help a little.

Also, please put in more Grey Magic gems!

Please!

[Nurvus]

Thing is Auras are best as group effects.

As a group you'll easily have a reasonable destructive power.
Even in a boss, when you have 5 different auras in your pouch with 10 slots, it's already easy to end the battle without having drawn all the auras...

Or if you did, you easily did it near the end of battle.

Auras are meant to affect other actions, they're not a brutal effect on their own (so far).

So it would be somewhat to expect, specially at such an early stage, that you could draw the Auras relatively soon, as to be able to benefit the whole group for a good portion of a serious battle (bosses, etc), not when the battle is already decided...

That's what takes me to state that as we close in to 50 pouch slots, Aura-focused characters will be either extremely unreliable in their purpose and/or extremely inneficient in their "secondary" purpose, as having 3x the same aura, and more than 5 different auras just chips away your spellcasting efficiency by providing you with useless draws after you're set and while you're trying to set up (drawing the same aura twice, etc...)

--------------
So, with all said, my point is that the addition of new gems and gem types will surely compensate any caster that doesn't focus on Auras.
Even casters that may use the max spell damage boosting red auras can place them in the first slot, and then draw only useful spells.

The only real concern left here - to me - is the Aura system.

It really doesn't scale like the other gem types, because they do nothing when you draw them, only while they're in play, and even then it's support effect that depend on time, and events (actions, etc).
----------------

Again I'm just trying to refine the expression of my concern.
Perhaps Jeff does have all of it covered and we need but wait to see the results.

I'm just trying to share a heads up on what can be a potential future "bug".

Someone should make a web site or Thread that list all possible gems with basic information, so that casters can plan and build their Gem Pouches.

Just like other trade card game sites.

Jeff I strongly recommend you doing this.

I do not like the attitude of some people here.

I was talking to people in game today about the fact that the usable gem space is too small. pretty much everyone says things like "Use DD or fail."

Now i'm a bit more of a blue user myself. So for me, i like utility gems. Things like providing my group with mana, balancing out my own mana/energy, dazing the enemy, healing my team, providing aura benefits ect.

Since even with my premium account benefits, i only have six usable slots, it doesn't take long for them to be filled. It is too easy to end up recycling between two gemstones, or even the same gem right now. granted i only have like 11 pouch slots, but still.

Granted, to a caster who can easily burn every spell he gets with out thinking twice, six slots is plenty. To ones who prefer to use things like Auras, or Heal over Time gems. Having an escape pot ready for when **** hits fan, and other gem stones, the six slots gets used up too quickly and stays that way.

Hmm...Picho I think 6 slots are more than enough.
Of course 10 would be better and 20 much more bette but this will destroy balance.
This game is about making desisions. You can not have it all.
In this line of thoughts having 5 different auras and 5 healing gems going at the same time just from 1 player in a group of 3 is not good. Now at low lvl you dont see it but imagine a group of 3 lvl 80 casters with their 10 auras, 10 heals and 10 DD spells.
It will make this game plain simple and the player will be limited to just clicking a gem when its ready. I wont like to play such game.
Now I have to decide if I should use the 2 shield aura or maybe its better to free space for that 4 hp heal for 11 sec...or maybe its better to put those 2 out and take 2 green gems with 2 hp heal for 5 sec...and if I make the wrong decision I will have it hard to advance in the game.

it gets to be too much sometimes if you don't have gems to fill the slots, especially if you need healing gems when you are fighting a high lvl creature

What I do is fill up my bag with lower level gems, and if I draw something better, replace them in the slots, this way I at least have something more useful than escape pots; which I leave a few open, cause you never know when you might hit a random boss encounter you can't handle yet.