secondary classes

[jayali]

I cant wait for this patch... just to let you know, that getting secondary class skills or whatever by doing quests is a totally crap idea imo.

[Sanluciferr]

Originally Posted by jayali

I cant wait for this patch... just to let you know, that getting secondary class skills or whatever by doing quests is a totally crap idea imo.

lol? why do you think that? i mean the actual question would be ,do you think?

Dude by working and getting what you want and deserve you cant go wrong , why? there would still be people complaining about their first class and so on and the imbalance and etc, so simple and out of the routine of just killing mobs and lvleing skills you can get a mission/quest and get what you are looking for and what you really deserve unlike... people picking up this and that and bingo! oh shoot, i want to change my first class i dont like, crap, dude man irl you dont like something you work hard to fix it or you sacrifice ur self to get to the point that u want to be and u deserve to get.

On the other page, that would mean something huge and a story line in play as a fun and full of neverending things to do, getting skills to 100 is easy and boring but doing different quest and missions is hard and entertaining.

Not to mention that people wont be able to complain anymore at all since you basically get what you are looking for and not what u chose without knowing what was it.

I'm excited to see just what and how Glitchless plans on implementing this. Most everyone brings up good points, but I think Klippi makes one of the most valid ones:

Originally Posted by klippi

Letting all classes freely mesh with one another would only give rise to illogical abominations and a trend we'd see is players flocking to the most (lets be honest) OP classes. I won't name them now but they know who or which they are. (They are generally opposed to this update for this reason.) Why should we go adventurer when a warrior gives a bonus to farm speed, or a warrior when a BM can give you a bonus to pet damage and heals. Why?

I will use my class as an example, since that's the class I know best. The Dark Knight, with a bonus to melee, detrimental auras, and a slight bonus to detrimental effects (not auras) and damage, in pvp, having to choose a second class that gives different bonuses - on top of the three different bonuses - would make for a weak jack of all trades, competent at none.
This is, of course, presumptuous of me to say, because we don't know just what Glitchless has in store for us, but assuming (yes, I do know what they say about assuming...) that secondary classes do in fact give the bonus of that class (which would make sense), being, for example, a Ranger with a Weapons Master as a secondary class would render one of the bonuses useless.
But, alas, I'm sure that due to common sense, we wouldn't see this type of fusion, if there aren't any restrictions on which class to choose from (hey, it's your choice!). But, then again, some people lack basic comprehensive skills, sooo....

I'm all for the secondary classes, but I also thought that point was valid and worth emphasizing.

[Sanluciferr]

Originally Posted by Blueack

I'm excited to see just what and how Glitchless plans on implementing this. Most everyone brings up good points, but I think Klippi makes one of the most valid ones:



I will use my class as an example, since that's the class I know best. The Dark Knight, with a bonus to melee, detrimental auras, and a slight bonus to detrimental effects (not auras) and damage, in pvp, having to choose a second class that gives different bonuses - on top of the three different bonuses - would make for a weak jack of all trades, competent at none.
This is, of course, presumptuous of me to say, because we don't know just what Glitchless has in store for us, but assuming (yes, I do know what they say about assuming...) that secondary classes do in fact give the bonus of that class (which would make sense), being, for example, a Ranger with a Weapons Master as a secondary class would render one of the bonuses useless.
But, alas, I'm sure that due to common sense, we wouldn't see this type of fusion, if there aren't any restrictions on which class to choose from (hey, it's your choice!). But, then again, some people lack basic comprehensive skills, sooo....

I'm all for the secondary classes, but I also thought that point was valid and worth emphasizing.

I am trying to understand you and klippi but i just cant, the problem is the people who chose a bad primary class? or the people who can get to op by combining their first class with another op 2nd class? or actually the problem is that u r screwed once you pick up certain classes? for all that thats why i suggested and a lot more people that know how boring it is and easy to lvl up skills/stats by killing the same mob over and over... thats why we are suggesting quest so people get what they want and have no rights to say I WANT THAT CLASS CAUSE IS BETTER AND MY ONLY CHOICE IS REROLL.

But i see you guys just want a new stat to lvl up and get a specific bonus and die with that, instead of having the chances to get different things by doing different quests, that why if you cry about you class is because you havent sacrifice your self in order to get what you wanted and u couldnt call that imbalance, i would could it lack of strategy/sacrifice.

[Conqueror]

I support an ability to mesh with any class; I am 100% against putting restrictions in place.

The class abilities patch did not allow people to choose their abilities; rather the abilities were forced on them. Some people were highly displeased with their abilities. [I for one still feel shafted by the archer ability; traders got an ability with the blinding effect that archers should have received and rangers got a much better ability as well to add insult to injury].

But this is the chance to rectify all of these things.

This is the chance to allow people to pick and choose.


I agree that many people will lean towards the angel/guardian/bm classes.

That is why I suggested the implementation of class specific skills in another thread.

As it stands now, class does not mean much in this game. By adding good skills for each class that are specific to that particular class, people will be forced to look beyond class abilities when making a selection. They will have to mix and match their own playing style in terms of main and accessory weapon types with the classes that they choose.

To give you an example: I am an archer. I use shields, whips and gems in addition to my bow which is my primary weapon type.

I could pick the beastmaster class as my secondary class in order to get access to the bm class specific skills for my whips. I could pick trader because I really like the trader ability and also for the potential money making class specific skills. I could go with guardian to enhance my shield usage abilities or I could lean towards necromancer or magician in order to enhance my ability to cast black magic and red magic gems.

Archers have the potential to use everything. I see no reason to put limitations in place.

I do encourage implementation of class specific skills because they will give each class:

a meaning;

a purpose.

People will be forced to look beyond class abilities and class bonuses when making a decision.


In my opinion, class bonuses should be halved and the secondary class's class ability should be given in full but should have a double timer perhaps that is not reset by the arena.


This patch has my support.

Originally Posted by klippi

Letting all classes freely mesh with one another would only give rise to illogical abominations

I'm sure that Hitler felt the same way.

Originally Posted by Sanlucifer

I am trying to understand you and klippi but i just cant

That's the thing, you just missed the point we were trying to make. All that was mentioned was that having certain combinations of classes would be absurd and would bear no fruit, like the example of a Ranger/Weapons Master. Even if your idea of questing for a certain bonus was implemented, what was said still stands. If you're a Ranger and you're questing for the Weapons Master bonus you're talking about, for example, that bonus would still be useless because you wouldn't be swinging your weapons if you're firing your arrows.

There should be a boundary restraining certain classes from pairing up with other classes. Or just have some sort of... summoning of your secondary class to join the battle and aid somehow. Something like a pokemon (yeah, I said pokemon). The idea of having secondary classes sounds easier than what it actually is. There are different variables that play a role in making something not fail (like a Ranger/Weapons Master) that need to be taken into consideration. But if you do the pokemon thing, it would be easier but I think less fun.

[Sanluciferr]

Well yea you have a point right there but i still dont share it, i dont believe in limitations you never know some new legendary bow with uber high min damage can get on our way and some dude would like to have a ranger bonus ( thats just an extreme example to show my point of view).

Imo the more choices , the more strategical and the less cookie cutter builds.

I dont want a game like the other games, i want a game in the one i can get what i want by working it out and doing it my way without limitations but i dont like the idea to just pick 1 and stay with that forever, i want an evolutionist type of strategy where theres no limitations for no1 and everyone can go their way so people dont regret their choices.

[Conqueror]

Originally Posted by Sanlucifer

Well yea you have a point right there but i still dont share it, i dont believe in limitations you never know some new legendary bow with uber low min damage can get on our way and some dude would like to have a ranger bonus ( thats just an extreme example to show my point of view).

Imo the more choices , the more strategical and the less cookie cutter builds.

I dont want a game like the other games, i want a game in the one i can get what i want by working it out and doing it my way without limitations but i dont like the idea to just pick 1 and stay with that forever, i want an evolutionist type of strategy where theres no limitations for no1 and everyone can go their way so people dont regret their choices.

I agree with this.

I do not support limitations / restrictions.

Restrictions force people to do certain things.

I support the ability to make choices; to have complete freedom of action.

That way if people do not like a certain aspect of their character, it is no longer Glitchless's fault. It is that person's own fault because they made a particular choice.

I am dead set against this idea of limiting people to a certain pool of classes. I do not want the class abilities patch all over again where the abilities were forced on us. I want the freedom to choose what I want to do with my character.

Again, I recommend making the classes more appealing by implementing class specific skills; the skills of a particular class should only be available to the people who have that particular class as a primary or a secondary class.

Such skills will force people to look beyond class abilities and class bonuses when making a choice.

Originally Posted by Conqueror

Restrictions force people to do certain things.

...

What were you expecting when you picked the Archer class, other than being able to fire your arrows?

It seems illogical to think that someone would be able to swing a weapon, raise a shield to block an attack, and fire a bow, all at the same time (while kiting and casting magic, mind you). I understand that this is a game and it doesn't have to make perfect sense to work (or to be entertaining), but some aspects actually do have to be logical and make sense.
For example, I don't see why a real-life magician (if there were any) wouldn't be able to strap a quiver and bow onto his/her back.
Or why a real-life archer can't work on his aim while also practicing his fencing skills. Oh, I know why; because he only has two hands. Just like starburst, it would be a contradiction.

I understand that you guys would like diversity, but some diversity just isn't meant to be.
If the case ends up being that there are no restrictions, that's fine by me. I won't make the poor choice of picking a second class that wouldn't compliment my primary class the entire time it's active. I just think it would be more successful to have fully-complimentary characters with restrictions, like it is now. You can't be a Warrior and expect to win an archery contest against an Archer.

[Conqueror]

Originally Posted by Blueack

What were you expecting when you picked the Archer class, other than being able to fire your arrows?

It seems illogical to think that someone would be able to swing a weapon, raise a shield to block an attack, and fire a bow, all at the same time (while kiting and casting magic, mind you).

Technically speaking, all the archer is doing is firing a bow.

Regarding the shield, it is sitting on his arm and he just swings it forward when reloading. This is accounted for by the delay increase penalty and by the fact that archers can only block at half the efficacy of a melee attacker.

The whip is just there to scare the pet into doing things. Gems can be cast between bow swings I suppose (you would have to debate how exactly the gems are cast --- whether they are waves that are emitting from the body of the caster or whether the gems have to be physically manipulated in order to be cast). Regardless, everyone in the game can cast gems and so archers are not special in this regard.

And archers can not autoshoot and auto attack at the same time meaning that they can not swing weapons and shoot arrows at the same time either.

Originally Posted by Blueack

I understand that you guys would like diversity, but some diversity just isn't meant to be. You can't be a Warrior and expect to win an archery contest against an Archer.

Lets say that the warrior trains and becomes an accomplished archer. He should be able to excell at it too. Now if he or she decided to pursue this path for whatever reason, why place an artifical road block in the way and not allow them to pick the archer class as a secondary. Maybe the warrior really likes opening shots. Who knows ?

Also, weaponmaster/ranger may not be a very smart choice, but if someone wants to make that choice, why not let them do so.

Originally Posted by Blueack

If the case ends up being that there are no restrictions, that's fine by me. I won't make the poor choice of picking a second class that wouldn't compliment my primary class the entire time it's active.

We would all pick classes that we regard as complimentary to our primary class and weapon type. That is where the beauty of the free system lies. By making choices we would all be different.

What I was saying before was this:

Add class specific skills that are only available to the people who have a particular class as a primary or a secondary. In that way, people will be forced to account for more than just class ability and class bonus when making a choice. Classes will mean a whole lot more than they do currently if there are good skills that are exclusive to each class.

Originally Posted by Blueack

I just think it would be more successful to have fully-complimentary characters with restrictions, like it is now.

I respect your opinion but I disagree.

[Jon]

Regenerer/Admin class combo would wtfpwn angels

If jeff can give us an incentive for hybridizing with an adventurer, then that, is what adds an element of strategy to this game. He can give it to us with a hybrid class ability or something but theres hardly any strategy in picking bm/angel, get what i'm saying?

You can rightly argue that toons must be uber/have high skills to get OP but at the same time, class bonuses and ability play a huge role in duels and etc. Take my class ability for example. It has a 1 minute cooldown (with accel). I get a 188 attack and heal when i activate it but can it compare to a pally's heal, a 10 SECOND trader blind, or a dark knight DoT? No.

Through sheer number alone, I start off with -700ish hp if i fight a capped ranger. Or some damage and a stun effect from an archer. Believe it or not, there are such classes that can completely skew an arena fight or duel in their favor with their ability/bonus. To patch us imbalances that are, still, very prevalent in pvp, I think limited class hybridizing could be one such measure.

Conquerer, you are too greedy... Take a step back and take this in.

P.S. I think hybrid class abilities could work in conjunction with hybrid classes.


-------------


edit:

yeah I'm with blueack. if we can freely combined with anything, I wont make a bad decision either. angel warlock here i come.

If those quests were to be implemented, i think a fair idea would be to give a RANDOM class bonus or ability (limited by time, say, a 5-7 hours) as a reward upon completing the quest.

This way we wont see huge queues to kill same monster or fulfill same quest allover again just to get that angel bonus or whatever is OP in eyes of the community.

Also another idea could be if maybe people were allowed to to be Angel-Angel, Regener-Regener (as dual class) then it would make sense to further enchance your player class.
And i would wonder how many people would pick a class that is not their first original one, speaking of the freedom of choice, Conqueror.

And honestly I dont understand why do you, Conqueror, operate on weird class combos when speaking of the freedom of choice, it seems that most avoid the topics that most of the playerbase will consult with arena winners, high boss killers and pick their 2ndry class as those champions have.

So we will be looking at same chars running around, we already are- full same epic suits and such.

If speaking of freedom of choice, then Nodiatis should've allowed players to lvl to level 20 or 50 or even 85 with no class and then get to pick what they want to be and become for example Angel 2 grade or Angel 2nd tier or whatever. Then 3rd, 4th, each time progressing the ability. That will make the progress of the game further into the higher grounds where monsters hit for 10k damage, like Arach said.

There are 26 classes if im not mistaken which are divided into groups and each of these groups has a dominant class that stands out of all like caster group and their lead angel, archer class and their lead and etc.

Maybe do something with the balance of those leads by doing something with them ?

What about if a person wants to they can stay single class with no 2ndry, but if a person is unhappy with their first class, they do choose 2ndry and get 50% of the 2ndry and their primary is halved by 50% as well ?

This way it will be a balance of 100% of the single class that a person stays with 1 class only and if someone chooses another class as 2ndry will be sitting onto chairs instead of 1, but still amount up to 100%. So it would be fairly even ?

Sorry for the long post, I had some other ideas, but im at work and cant think

Whip out a calculator and find out how incredibly powerful mitigation of damage is. Enhanced mitigation is simply absurd...

sorry, music

[thatperson]

Originally Posted by Blueack

Or just have some sort of... summoning of your secondary class to join the battle and aid somehow. Something like a pokemon (yeah, I said pokemon)

can i choose which pokemon?!? cause i want pikachu NOONE ELSE CAN HAVE IT!!!!! just so i can yell into civil I CHOOSE YOU PIKACHU every time i use my secondary class

[Conqueror]

Music; How in the world did you get so many smiley's into your post. I think I am only allowed 5 images or so.

Originally Posted by Music

And i would wonder how many people would pick a class that is not their first original one, speaking of the freedom of choice, Conqueror.

And honestly I dont understand why do you, Conqueror, operate on weird class combos when speaking of the freedom of choice, it seems that most avoid the topics that most of the playerbase will consult with arena winners, high boss killers and pick their 2ndry class as those champions have.

So we will be looking at same chars running around, we already are- full same epic suits and such.

In the end, Glitchless will do whatever they want to. I am here like everyone else; bouncing ideas off of the walls; just a crazy nut trying to make some suggestions.


And here is my idea:


I operate off of the premise that there is complete freedom of choice. In other words, I hate artificial restrictions. They annoy me and they spoil the gaming experience for me in general. I hate being told that I can not do something in a certain way or that I have to do something in a certain way.

I would rather make the choice myself based on what I think will work best.


So given that there is complete freedom of choice, any person will be able to pick any class as their secondary.


This is the point at which your concern comes into play: some people will find an optimal combo and everyone will jump on board; bm/guardian/angel being the obvious choices.

To this I have two things to say: most people are band waggon jumpers and need other people to do the thinking for them. Even now (without any secondary classes), this is the case. Implementation of secondary classes will not make the situation any worse; it will only make it better.


So lets say that there is complete freedom of choice (any individual can pick any class as their secondary class).

Now the question becomes: How do we get people to choose from all of the different classes (rather than just pick the supposedly optimal combo) ?


My idea in regards to this issue was class specific skills.

So lets take the beast master class. These beast master specific skills should only be available to people who have the beast master class as their primary or secondary class.


Basically my thought process is this: by implementing these so called class specific skills each class will become a very attractive option.

People will be forced to choose based on more than just class bonuses and class abilities. There is no sense in picking a guardian class or an angel class if one does not use gems or shields (typical dual wielder). Class specific skills would not help this person at all if he or she went with angel/guardian. If there were no class specific skills however, these individuals would be more likely to go for the angel ability simply because of the "kill me twice button."



This is my idea. Sorry for long post.


If you have other ways to get people to pick between all of the classes (rather than angel/guardian/bm) I would love to hear them.

My idea to do this is to implement class specific skills. There will be freedom of choice and people will choose between all of the classes since the class specific skills will make all of the classes an attractive option.

[thatperson]

This is my idea. Sorry for long post.

all of your posts are long



the smiley group was just to prove u can do more than 5

[Smashbros]

i disagree with music, and alot of the other posts in here.

the quests i suggested originally would be something like:

if i want to become a Rogue as my 2ndry class i have to find say 50 Essence of Rogue. They are ONLY collected via random quests.

say Take 200 rock worth of sticks (given by the seer) through every town up till Crella.

That would get 1 Essence.

Each quest is doable once ONLY. and they would get harder and harder.

say quest 10 would be Fight 5 groups of 3 people 1 on 3 with an average lvl base of double yours. soo if you were lvl 85 you would need to fight 3 people that had a lvl total of 170. and you would need to win 3 of these 5 fights.

quest 20 would be something like

find and kill every boss up till lvl 50 in heroic.

quest 30 would be something like

resource tiers 1-3 of every resource.

quest 40 would be

travel to every town (from castille to usternar) 10 times (or if you are lower lvl every town you are able to reach)

quest 50 would be

kill 100 random bosses in heroic mode.

something like that that is doable only once, but wont be able to be done over night. that way you have worked for what you have gotten, and if you dont like it then you literally have no one to blame but yourself.

the tasks should be scallable so that everyone can do them, not just capped players.

and it should be a full benifit from the 2nd class.

before you start these quests you get asked what class you want, and it gives you an explanation of what the bonus would be, (obv if you chose to go as a masterer (like weapon master/weapon master) you get an extra bonus) and it would tell you what exactly the bonuses would be, stacked with your current bonus.

i do think that the 2nd classes CA should be combined with your current 1. like if you went angel weapon master, then you would get a part thereof bonus of both classes. like an ability to resurrect and half the weapon haste. with the ability to toggle these to full of either 1. if you were a class masterer then it would just increase your CA ability as benifit for sticking as a purist.

[Killda]

i would also suggest that we are able to pick up the same secondary class as primary

Also another idea could be if maybe people were allowed to to be Angel-Angel, Regener-Regener (as dual class) then it would make sense to further enchance your player class.

but that would also have to be somewhat checked to make sure the final bonus is not too unrealistic.

Also maybe adding a unique bonus(or skill or ability to be defined) when you choose 2 times the same class as primary and secondary to make your character more unique than somebody that just picked the class only as a secondary. That would also be a good time to fix less popular classes for exemple like regenerers by giving them a new bonus(or skill or ability to be defined) if they choose it again as a secondary

(obv if you chose to go as a masterer (like weapon master/weapon master) you get an extra bonus) and it would tell you what exactly the bonuses would be, stacked with your current bonus.

=> I believe that will keep the current player with OP classes happy to still be unique, while also providing an opportunity for players that choose a less "OP" class to start with to keep their class, but be able to add some value to it by choosing a secondary class with new bonuses or by keeping the same class and get a new unique bonus that nobody else can get.

In my opinion, that would be the best that can be done for the coming secondary class patch.

[Tragicallyhip]

I honestly think there should be 10 or 12 new classes made that are specific to being only secondary classes.... It just makes more since then combining say a Bm and a vamp... now I'm healing regardless... or a Bm and a Weapons master... now I'm not only hitting you for a ton with my pets but I'm capable of hitting hard with whips as well, Or a BM/DK, now I have bonus to detrimental gems and even my devamp health from my whips...

I'm not really sure what to think about this patch yet, without really knowing anything beside the release date it's a shot in the dark at what it's going to be like.

Primary class is that, being primary you should receive 100% bonus (The max innate bonus that is possible to receive if CS and CE were maxed at 100) in class enhancing skills to that class, now your SECONDARY class should be 50% bonus (Obviously half of the bonus you would potentially receive if that was your main class. So instead of 10.5% increase to weapon dmg like a weapon master has, you can only get 5.25% if you have CS and CE maxed) to your toon, due to it being SECONDARY class. That's just my thought on that.

As for the Secondary Class Abilities.... let me put it like this.... If I have a BM Ability that triggers a bleed, then I have a vamp ability that does dmg and then makes it so I can't die, upon the already constant heals I get, how many would want to duel me? Or what about having a secondary class as a WM and getting the melee and range haste the weapon master gets when triggering my secondary CA, Now I have the potential to hit you incredibly fast for an incredible amount.... , or the disease you get when I trigger the DK class ability..... bleed on top of a diseased "bleed"... That's crazy dmg... hell I won't have to attack.


I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here, it's all just theory anyway. Like was said earlier Glitch will do whatever they want so we're just throwing ideas out and hoping for some luck. That's just my opinion on those ideas. I'm not even sure how I feel about the quests for abilities... it's all just tag in the dark till we hear more from Glitch on the subject imho.