How much hp and dur

[Conqueror]

It can't be Chrism.

Note that the addition of tempers to the game will gradually and significantly increase the base hitpoint pool of players. The bonuses gained from durability will remain unchanged, however, with a larger starting base of hitpoints the % of life gained from durability will be naturally lessened. This will likely make other defense stats far more important than before for PvP viability.

The above is from Glitchless. Notice the colored part.

If you really want to try it, remove Rerollers tempers somehow by changing his armor but keep the number of hitpoints constant.

See if you gain the exact number that you should be gaining from the tempers by simply adding them.

Tempers add to the base hitpoint total as Glitchless has said. They do not add to your current hit point total. Given a high enough durability and level, this would become quite obvious I think. But you might be able to see it even with reroller.

Try it.

[thatperson]

let me put this a way everyone can understand


say each dur gives 5 hp (random number dont quote this) you add 5 hp to a base of 500 and you just added 1% to it then turn around and add 5 hp to a base of 1000 and you only added .5% to it that is what glitchless was saying by the percentage will be lessened

[StormGuardian]

Ok so I did a quick test. I have 2670 hp and 247 dur. 3 pieces of equipment used for this quick test. helm with 1 dur, no temper. sleeve with x2 temper @ lvl 50, no dur. leg with x2 temper @ lvl 50, no dur.

I take the helm off(-1 dur). i get 2661 hp. so 1 dur means 9 hp. Ok that's my base.

I take of the sleeve first, I go to 2570, then take the helm off, 2561. Still 9 hp for 1 dur

I take the leg and sleeve off, I go to 2470, then take the helm off, 2461. Still 9 hp for 1 dur.

Just for kicks, I also took off my staff(another x2 temper, and 3 dur, 4 w/SE, and then the sleeve and arm...and THEN the helm, that 1 dur...still 9 hp.

Tempers are flat. Dur gives the same bonus for the same lvl char as long as you go to the same new dur. Tempers dont change that afaik. You can add them at the beginning, you can add them after dur, it'll all come out the same. Dur is a separate curve, added in separately, just like everything else. Period.

Conq for you...the key word is %(also read as percentage fyi).

Base of 5k hp. You have 3k in tempers. You add 1 dur, and go up 15 hp.

From your base...15hp is 15/5000 or 0.3%.
From your base + tempers...15hp is 15/8000, or 0.1875%.

That point in dur still gave the same hp, but the PERCENTAGE was lower. Now does it make sense?

[Smashbros]

ok ill post what i have:

lvl 82
500 dur
8*3 temper
1*4 temper
1*4 temper with 75 double bond (on a 2h pierce)

tempers add: 2870 hp.

9986 hp total.

[Chrism]

I have 2670 hp and 247 dur...sleeve with x2 temper @ lvl 50, no dur. leg with x2 temper @ lvl 50, no dur.

I take of the sleeve first, I go to 2570...

I take the leg and sleeve off, I go to 2470...

This backs up my statement, methinks

Thanks stormy

[Conqueror]

Omg no.

Ok let me try to explain again.

Your base hitpoint total is the amount of hitpoints that you would have if your durability was 0 (kaput, nada). Ok.

Base hitpoint total is the number of hitpoints that you get simply for existing and being a certain level.

To this you add the hitpoints that come from tempers (adding to the base).

So actual base = original base (total hitpoint amount with 0 durability) + tempers.


Follow so far.


Now you add durability. The amount that durability gives depends on how high your base hitpoint total is.

I think that it works on a curve although I can't say for sure.

A curve like this: (saturation curve)



Basically you can think of this curve as representing the amount of hitpoints gained per point of durability.

With a higher base, you are closer to the top of the curve where the curve levels off. When the curve levels off, you gain a much lower amount of hitpoints per point of durability.



Get what I am trying to say ?

So given a high enough durability and a high enough amount of tempers, you will be at a higher point along the curve.

Then if you add a temper, you will not get as many hitpoints as the temper indicates because even though your base hitpoint total will increase, your durability will give less hitpoints than it was giving before.

EDIT:
In other words what tempers do is take you to a higher point on the curve so that your durability is less effective. Get rid of the tempers and your durability will be more effective again.

Durability fluctuates depending on what point of the curve you are on.

[Chrism]

Then if you add a temper, you will not get as many hitpoints as the temper indicates

Stormy proved my conjecture, you now will need to prove yours

EDIT::

Removed Reroller's arrow, tempered 2x at lvl 50, HP goes from 6734 -> 6634 (everything else also has a DUR enchantment)

EDIT 2::

Also, you can't have 0 dur, btw... minimum in any stat is 1... and even that is barely allowable

Originally Posted by Chrism

Chrism
Level: 77
DUR: 362
Tempers: None

HP: 4981

Regnar
Level: 77
DUR: 250
Tempers: None

HP: 3542

regnar gets 3542/250 = 14.168 hp per dur point
chrism gets 4981/362 = 13.76 hp per dur point

Chrism is obviously getting penalties.

If we take (4981-3542) and divide it by (362-250) the penalties are much more evident. 12.85 hp per dur point

It is my assumption that you will get the full bang for your buck anywhere at or less than 1.5(100+x) where x is your actual level. Chrism, can you lower your dur to ~ 150 to see if its true. then bring it all the way up to 265/266?

[Smashbros]

ok ill test it.

at lvl 82, with NO armor or anything on. i have 4051 hp and 271 dur.

ill put on 1 piece of equip with the lowest amount of dur added, which is my epic 9 bow, with +6 dur.

my hp is no 4393 with 278 dur total. (my SE is at 49 which counts for the increase over 6)

it has +246 hp on it so ill take that off to see what it is with no tempers.

= 96 hp points from 7 dur. which means 13.71 (to 2 dec places) per point of Dur.

now ill add everything else EXCEPT the bow.

ok now for everything except the bow i have 9648 hp.

which includes 2624 hp from tempers. and i have 493 Dur.

ill remove the tempers again, 7024 hp total with NO tempers, and 493 Dur.

now to add the bow.

i have 9986 hp, or with no tempers at all: 7116

which means there is an increase of 92. for the exact same 7 points in Dur.

that means it is now a gain of 13.14(to 2 decimal places) per 1 point in Dur.

thats a 0.57 DECREASE in each of those 7 Dur Points.

now if it was, as everyone else is saying, a steady increase, then with my tempers and all, i would expect to have 10060.59 hp, instead of the 9986 i ACTUALLY have.

therefore, it is safe to say, that although it is tiny, Dur lessens in value THE MORE YOU HAVE. which is what ive been trying to say the entire thread.


EDIT

just so you all know, i have NOT been saying that tempers are lowered based on dur. well i havent been trying to say that

[Conqueror]

Originally Posted by Chrism

Stormy proved my conjecture, you now will need to prove yours

I wish I could.

I have the durability but I do not have the tempers. I don't arena much at all because I can never find anyone to team up with on a regular basis and I hate using my alts for arena.

But:

400 - 500 durability does give more hitpoints than 500 - 600 durability does. That sort of supports what I am saying.


EDIT:

Smash, test it with your hitpoint total constant. Just fiddle around with tempers. Check to see if tempers give you the exact amount that they indicate they will give. If they give less, that supports what I am saying.

Keep the hitpoint total constant.

[Chrism]

I am not refuting the asymptotic nature of the effects of DUR.

I am saying that HP = f(x) + Tempers, rather than f(x+Tempers)

[Conqueror]

Originally Posted by StormGuardian

Conq for you...the key word is %(also read as percentage fyi).

Base of 5k hp. You have 3k in tempers. You add 1 dur, and go up 15 hp.

From your base...15hp is 15/5000 or 0.3%.
From your base + tempers...15hp is 15/8000, or 0.1875%.

That point in dur still gave the same hp, but the PERCENTAGE was lower. Now does it make sense?

Looking at the "percentage" in Glitchless's statement in this way makes absolutely 0 sense to me from a practical point of view.

I understand what you are saying. But if that is what the intention was, then why say that the other defensive stats will carry more importance.

The other defensive stats will only carry more importance if durability carries less importance. And durability will only carry less importance if it becomes less effective.

Durability will certainly not become less effective if it still gives the same hitpoint increase point by point. If what you are saying is true and durability is completely separate and has no relation to base hitpoint total whatsoever, then people may as well continue to pump durability to see higher and higher hitpoint totals.


The reason that your results did not confirm my theory can be addressed also: your hitpoint total and temper total are too low. Maybe the curve reaches its leveling off point more gradually and the effect is only evident at higher levels.

The same can be said for reroller's observations.

Smash's observations seem to support my theory.



@ Chrism.


Well Yes. I am hypothesizing that it is HP = f(x + tempers).

That is the only way that I can make sense of what Glitchless is saying.

I might be completely wrong.

I am just trying to convey how I believe it works.

[StormGuardian]

As long as you understand what you quoted from me in the previous post, you should understand the rest of this one as well.

First off, I would definitely say that what Glitchless said could have been worded better. However, what he said does indeed make sense with my quote in your post above.

Lets see if this will clear things up:

Conq, you ARE correct, that dur provides less and less of a bonus the higher it goes. That's how the curve works. It's a logarithmic or saturation curve. Both are good examples. A lvl 85 adding dur as you go...it will be constant(im guessing) up to a certain point(+x hp per 1 dur), and then will slowly taper off. That part of all your posts is correct. Totally agree. I'm pretty sure it'll start dropping at dur = 1.5*(100+char lvl), just like everything else haha.

Now, the part of what you're saying that's NOT true...is that tempers raise your "starting point" on that said curve. They are completely independent of dur. Tempers add flat bonuses, dur is a curve. Dur and your lvl are the ONLY things that impact hp from dur. Tempers only depend on lvl, and are added extra, as proved by my ##s and other things. Smash simply is proving that dur "bonus" is lowered the higher you go, as in previous paragraph.

Originally Posted by Conqueror

I understand what you are saying. But if that is what the intention was, then why say that the other defensive stats will carry more importance.

The other defensive stats will only carry more importance if durability carries less importance. And durability will only carry less importance if it becomes less effective.

Durability will certainly not become less effective if it still gives the same hitpoint increase point by point. If what you are saying is true and durability is completely separate and has no relation to base hitpoint total whatsoever, then people may as well continue to pump durability to see higher and higher hitpoint totals.

Well how do tempers make dur less of a deal you ask? Here's how:

1. As you add more and more dur, the +HP value decreases per point. Ok we know this. Each point gives a smaller and smaller % of total hp(as I explained earlier). Makes sense.

2. Damage from your opponent/mob stays constant, along with your agi/cnt, you're going to take the same amount of damage per hit/gem cast. Ok that's normal. It also requires more and more enemy hits to be required to kill you.

More hp means more hits you can take. That's nice, but how much does it help?

3. If you put those points into agi(using agi for example, cnt for gems is same idea), those points will increase your parry/avoid/kite rate, mitigating some of the damage in a sense. Since agi is low, thiese points give full effect. Ok so I can avoid/parry/kite some hits, avoiding damage, but I have less hp. So what?

4. Eventually, taking points from dur and placing in agi, will cause enough strikes that would normally hit you to be blocked/avoided/parried/kited/etc for MORE hp than the dur points would give, making agi all of a sudden, more important.

Where this barrier is? I don't know. But I'm sure that agi 100->150 will cause more damage mitigated than dur from 650->700 will give hp. Now of course, this requires some defensive skills to be useful...but eventually, agi will give a bigger +parry/avoid/etc% than dur will +hp%.

The question basically becomes, would you rather have 15,000 hp and 0% avoid/parry/etc rate...or 12,000 hp and a 25% avoid/parry/etc rate?

I know which one I'd choose.

[Conqueror]

I read over what Glitchless wrote down a few times and I have to agree with you. I guess that I wanted base hitpoints and dur to be linked and I just assumed that this was the case all along.

My rationale for this assumption was this: agi and cnt would be that much more important if durability was rendered less effective because of a linked and higher base hit point total.

Good job setting the record straight, once again

Cheers

the biggest problem i can see with conq and smash is that you are saying that how much dur adds to hp depends on how much hp you already have so dur ends up being dependent on something it creates... its like being your own father

its like saying (this is without tempers)
dur^hp=hp
now obviously this isnt the actual equation but it shows that something that is dependent on the thing it creates is itself a paradox. you can put any symbol in between them or rearrange it however you want but the equation will not work. this is except for a few cases all of which will only work if dur is a constant

so dur must be its own equation which is only dependent on itself. something like

(lvl+dur)^x or f(lvl)*f(dur)*x where x is some arbitrary constant

any way back to track ive figured i can prob give a good formula for dur if i had people with the same dur but different lvls so if any one can do that ill try to find a formula today

since i know lvl doesnt effect it linearly it will have to be at least 3 different lvls it would help if these where very close in lvl

[Smashbros]

Originally Posted by yoky

the biggest problem i can see with conq and smash is that you are saying that how much dur adds to hp depends on how much hp you already have so dur ends up being dependent on something it creates... its like being your own father

its like saying (this is without tempers)
dur^hp=hp
now obviously this isnt the actual equation but it shows that something that is dependent on the thing it creates is itself a paradox. you can put any symbol in between them or rearrange it however you want but the equation will not work. this is except for a few cases all of which will only work if dur is a constant

so dur must be its own equation which is only dependent on itself. something like

(lvl+dur)^x or f(lvl)*f(dur)*x where x is some arbitrary constant

you missed my last post i take it....

i did and it didnt make much sense... maybe i misunderstood it but from what i can tell you done this

added dur from bow got amount x
removed bow
added more dur from items and hp from tempers
then added bow again

here you increase dur not just tempers from what i can tell and we are not disputing curve of dur we know its curved, we are disputing if tempers change your place on the curve (effect the amount which dur adds)

[thatperson]

Originally Posted by yoky

the biggest problem i can see with conq and smash is that you are saying that how much dur adds to hp depends on how much hp you already have so dur ends up being dependent on something it creates... its like being your own father

its like saying (this is without tempers)
dur^hp=hp
now obviously this isnt the actual equation but it shows that something that is dependent on the thing it creates is itself a paradox. you can put any symbol in between them or rearrange it however you want but the equation will not work. this is except for a few cases all of which will only work if dur is a constant

so dur must be its own equation which is only dependent on itself. something like

(lvl+dur)^x or f(lvl)*f(dur)*x where x is some arbitrary constant

it could be something like dur^(initial hp)=final hp so it is possible (again random formula not actual dur formula)

[Huggles]

How about this: Somebody start making an archer or other low dur class and take it down to 50 dur. then we can test level 1-20 at low dur. Then we test levels 1-20 at 100, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 170, 180, 190, and 200 dur. Then we can hope to have a formula. if not we will level more.