Change to Double Attack

[Smashbros]

well i was looking at the Weaponry skills, and noticed that most skills have dif %s for 1h and 2h weapons, but Double Attack doesnt.

soo my suggestion:

Make it able to effect 2h weapons either .4% or .35% per lvl, soo 35-40% at lvl 100, compared to that 20% for 1h.

just thought it might help even out the playing field, and make 2hers a legit choice for boss fights.

[Sanluciferr]

I support.

no... just no... double attacks are done on a % so its basically like multiplying your average dmg by x% however the skills that are increased are like that since they dont depend on your average dmg they are dependent on number of hits so need to be double the % to be equal since you have half the number of hits with a 2h.

and when you say most skills its 2 skills that has a different % for each weapon type the extra crit chance is a completely different skill

[Smashbros]

Originally Posted by yoky

no... just no... double attacks are done on a % so its basically like multiplying your average dmg by x% however the skills that are increased are like that since they dont depend on your average dmg they are dependent on number of hits so need to be double the % to be equal since you have half the number of hits with a 2h.

and when you say most skills its 2 skills that has a different % for each weapon type the extra crit chance is a completely different skill

crit strike, 2 handed (ahh dur). hemorrhage, slice, puncture, smash adnd strikethrough.

compared to the weapon skills (pierce, crush and slash) and their specs, you have dual wield, overcrit, precision, venegance and deathblow.

sooo yeah, most skills feature a dif % for 2h weapons. go read them.

also as a % chance to hit, the more you hit = the more chance right??

soo a DW 1h that has a lower delay then a 1 2h weapon, means they have a higher chance of doing a double hit right??

cause thats how i assumed it, more hits = more chance of it going off.

but i assume that was logic, how stupid of me to assume logic would work.

as is yoky, a 2h weapon can hit 50 times, in the same time frame, with DW at the same delay, they will hit 100.

means that have double the chance to hit a double attack.

im not saying that it means that cause you DW you get 40% chance to hit, its just that you have 2 weapons swinging, both with a chance to hit.

2h have 1 weapon swinging, with 1 chance to hit.


all i want is for it to be evened out a bit.

[RogueTigeR]

i support

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by Sanlucifer

I support.

Why do you support? Because as a staff user this would help you? What if this was only for non-staff 2H weapons? It seems like every thread you only care about what you get out of it, not what everyone in Nod gets.

You disgust me...

[Monu]

Dual Wielders are lower



say, 20% chance. both have same delay.


30% for Dual Wielder
2/5 (40%) chance for the 2h

2Hs have a higher chance. say in 100 seconds the most hits win.

I rather have 50% chance and high delay 2H than .0000001% chance and a faster weapon. (numbers exaggerated to signify difference)

[thatperson]

currenlty both DW and 2h are a 20% chance to trigger DA but since theres 2 of the DW weapons you have a 20% chance for each to go off hence why 2h need to be buffed here

and huggles go to hell get off the forums before you make yourself look more like an idiot

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by thatperson

currenlty both DW and 2h are a 20% chance to trigger DA but since theres 2 of the DW weapons you have a 20% chance for each to go off hence why 2h need to be buffed here

and huggles go to hell get off the forums before you make yourself look more like an idiot

dw has higher delay, unless they are low damage weapons, in which case it doesn't make much of a difference.

still, i agree that 2h needs a buff

[thatperson]

LMAO AGAIN DONT TALK ABOUT WHAT U DONT KNOW average 1h at cap has ~20 delay which means with 100 DW your swinging with ~20 delay now most good capped people have DW at at least lvl 80 so they are pretty damn close to that
90 piercer 10 delay (some say 97 is better so lets go with 21 delay there)
81 slasher 22 delay
89 crusher 19 delay

now lets look at top 2hers

84 piercer 23 delay
75 slasher 31 delay
96 crusher 40 delay


DO SOME RESEARCH BEFORE YOU BLURT OUT RETARDED INFO

even with 0 DW the 1hers are faster than the 2h

oops forgot you dont have a big enough brain to do this math so ill do it for you

minimum lvl of 20 DW required so we start out swinging at 140% speed with 2 weapons so

14 delay DW piercers also 29.4 delay with 97 piercers
31 delay with slashers
26.6 delay with crushers

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by thatperson

LMAO AGAIN DONT TALK ABOUT WHAT U DONT KNOW average 1h at cap has ~20 delay which means with 100 DW your swinging with ~20 delay now most good capped people have DW at at least lvl 80 so they are pretty damn close to that
90 piercer 10 delay (some say 97 is better so lets go with 21 delay there)
81 slasher 22 delay
89 crusher 19 delay

now lets look at top 2hers

84 piercer 23 delay
75 slasher 31 delay
96 crusher 40 delay


DO SOME RESEARCH BEFORE YOU BLURT OUT RETARDED INFO

even with 0 DW the 1hers are faster than the 2h

and of course all updates are only for people at level 86 with level 101 skills? name 50 people with DW 97-100 and i'll shut up and never disagree with you again

also, 96 crusher is uncommon, 89 crusher and 81 slasher are epic, so comparing those delays is unfair

also, if you're going to compare capped items, how about taking the 99 epics, and the next lowest epics after those?

[thatperson]

Originally Posted by Huggles

and of course all updates are only for people at level 86 with level 101 skills? name 50 people with DW 97-100 and i'll shut up and never disagree with you again

also, 96 crusher is uncommon, 89 crusher and 81 slasher are epic, so comparing those delays is unfair

also, if you're going to compare capped items, how about taking the 99 epics, and the next lowest epics after those?

i compared the top available weaponry of every type i excluded 99 epics cause they arent usable at this time except by arena winners...as for 50 people with 97-100 DW learn to read i said most capped people have at least 80 also read my edit i did the math for it with 20 dw

oh and yes balance for every part of the game is impossible so the majority of balancing methods take place at cap\

ok so using 99 epics we assume all related skills are also at 99
so DW adds no extra delay (or what it does add is negligable)

99 2h crush 27 delay
99 2h slash 32 delay
99 2h pierce 37 delay

99 1h crush 25 delay
99 1h slash 27 delay
99 1h pierce 23 delay

which has higher delay?

[Huggles]

Epic 99 delays:
2H:
crush- 27
slash- 32
pierce- 37
staff (doesn't really count)- 38
1H:
crush: 25
slash: 27
pierce: 23
whip: 18
------------------

So, with 100 Dual Wield, Crusher is 2 Delay faster, slash is 5 faster, pierce is 14 faster (2h pierce does 2x more damage than a 1h piercer).
Also, while a DWer is getting 100 Dual Wield, a 2Her can get 100 Critical Strike and 100 Two-Handed (dual wield takes 2x more exp to raise than those skills)
Because of this, the 2her would be critting 65% of the time, if you don't count bonuses from equips. Someone with Dual Wield can crit a max of 25% of the time (considering critical strike maxed, equips not included).

Do I support this thread? Yes. Are 2Hers less powerful in general? Yes. Do they need 2x chance to swing twice? No. Do they need a better chance of a double attack than DWers? Yes.
Should we stop flaming? No, it's fun.

[Smashbros]

Originally Posted by Huggles

Do I support this thread? Yes. Do they need 2x chance to swing twice? No.

so which is it?? yes or no??

and i said 40% OR 35%. 35 isnt doubled 20. just so you know

[Sanluciferr]

Originally Posted by Huggles

Why do you support? Because as a staff user this would help you? What if this was only for non-staff 2H weapons? It seems like every thread you only care about what you get out of it, not what everyone in Nod gets.

You disgust me...

Yo, hey my man... get lost ok? first of all, my weaponry skills are a BIG "0"
Do i need to come with a 2nd and a 3rd as well? i dont think so.

I support everything that makes sense for the better and balance of this game, ofc this skills boost wont apply for staff users. Even if it does you Mr ignorant i have 60str besides the plenty of 0 in weaponry so if i disgust you is because you are assuming/trollin' things that you dont even know of.

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by Sanlucifer

Yo, hey my man... get lost ok? first of all, my weaponry skills are a BIG "0"
Do i need to come with a 2nd and a 3rd as well? i dont think so.

I support everything that makes sense for the better and balance of this game, ofc this skills boost wont apply for staff users. Even if it does you Mr ignorant i have 60str besides the plenty of 0 in weaponry so if i disgust you is because you are assuming/trollin' things that you dont even know of.

Lol k sorry for assuming. though since you are a 2h user and didn't say why you supported i had rason to assume....

[RogueTigeR]

Originally Posted by Sanlucifer

Yo, hey my man... get lost ok? first of all, my weaponry skills are a BIG "0"
Do i need to come with a 2nd and a 3rd as well? i dont think so.

I support everything that makes sense for the better and balance of this game, ofc this skills boost wont apply for staff users. Even if it does you Mr ignorant i have 60str besides the plenty of 0 in weaponry so if i disgust you is because you are assuming/trollin' things that you dont even know of.

I support San and can vouche that he supports this game as a whole and threads/ideas that enhance that. I can list off the top of my head w/o searching atleast 2-3 threads where he has made suggestions for most/ if not all build types.

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by Smashbros

so which is it?? yes or no??

and i said 40% OR 35%. 35 isnt doubled 20. just so you know

It is yes to more, no to 2x more. I was thinking 30% would be enough.

[Migleyy]

I support ~

Odd that the discussion seems to focus on the values of delay. Seems like it should focus on whether 2H is a balanced "class" of weaponry, and that means comparing dps.

Seems like one way is to make DA better for 2H (non staff) users (since presumably staff users are casters, for whom at mid to high levels should be doing their damage principally with gems. You could modestly buff 2H DA, and modestly buff Sl/Cr/Pierce spec for 2H non-staff... or further buff the 2H skill to provide modestly even more crits at mid to high levels -- doesn't matter.... the idea is to buff 2H melee just a bit.

Now... should that be done?

Seems the consensus is "yes". Does it need to be a lot? Probably not, but that is what testing and data are for.

The ongoing argument is that 2H is better than 1H dw in PvP, so it is okay if it is weaker in PvE. While that may be .. "okay" it shouldn't be MUCH weaker in PvE, just as it is not apparently MUCH stronger in PvP.

But.. comparing delays alone, or the number of dual attacks, alone, is spurious. Extra attacks, (or percentage of crits), over time, increase average dps (in a 'lumpy' fashion -- whereas the spec skills and the dw skill for 1H does so 'smoothly'). Of note, mirrored blade is also 'lumpy' in how it affects dps.

I support a modest buff to 2H dps if it would result -- at most mid to high levels in 2H evenly straddling 1H dw between PvE and PvP.

While self-preservation is no doubt, overall a good idea, it has nerfed mirrored blade somewhat, and thus 'depresses' the desirability of being a 2H melee specialist. Thus it seems that an overall boost to 2H dps would restore the balance (although ti will make Mirrored blade a required skill for mid to high level PvP vs. 2H.. but it seems pretty popular right now, anyway.

I would very much appreciate hearing from Glitchless, their views on where 2H sits, where they are supposed to sit - and, if there is an imbalance, whether there are any plans to address it in the near future. I am a slasher.. and trying out 2H might be fun - if it would not mean effectively cutting off my own foot.

Aside: Have any melee types tried doing 2H dw for farming, and 1H PvP for arena?

-Ane