Change to Double Attack

[Smashbros]

Originally Posted by Aneron

The ongoing argument is that 2H is better than 1H dw in PvP, so it is okay if it is weaker in PvE. While that may be .. "okay" it shouldn't be MUCH weaker in PvE, just as it is not apparently MUCH stronger in PvP.

just in response to that, no.

2h is weaker in PvP and PvE. and by quiet a bit aswell.

there are very few in the game, and especially at cap, that uses 2h.

i know of myself, and roguetiger that use 2h pierce, i havent heard of anyone else using 2h weapons. others might know of some, but i dont.

Originally Posted by Smashbros

just in response to that, no.

2h is weaker in PvP and PvE. and by quiet a bit as well.

there are very few in the game, and especially at cap, that uses 2h.

i know of myself, and roguetiger that use 2h pierce, i haven't heard of anyone else using 2h weapons. others might know of some, but i don't.

Weaker in BOTH PvP and PvE? OK, I can;t verify that yet (but have been trying a shift to 2H at level 56, holding the 2H epic slash... but.. if you say it, I will believe you.

So.. 2H is simply... fail? Not better at either aspect of the game?

That seems a shame.

[Smashbros]

Originally Posted by Aneron

Weaker in BOTH PvP and PvE? OK, I can;t verify that yet (but have been trying a shift to 2H at level 56, holding the 2H epic slash... but.. if you say it, I will believe you.

So.. 2H is simply... fail? Not better at either aspect of the game?

That seems a shame.

basically yes. glitch has said that it will never be better then DWing, but if built right, it can beat 90% of the masses who do cookie cutter builds.

[StormGuardian]

In my mind, 2H's DPS/DPD should never be quite as high as DWers...why? b/c 2H is more defensive in general while DWers are known for blades of fury all out agression/attack. 2H weaps are known for parrying followed by a counter-attacks. However, a few numbers just to see how much more 2Hers need a buff, if any, I'll let you guys decide:

Copied from "Casters are OP thread" page 11 post #208...these are pretty accurate esimates of DPD:

96 2H crush: ~23.72 DPD
94 1H crush: ~25.37 DPD

99 2H crush: ~27.46 DPD
99 1H crush: ~32.93 DPD

Now...if we take a DW vs. 2Her, assuming same stats/all skills @ 100, we can adjust these numbers based on a few skills:

DW:
Parry chance is 36% for DW.
Strikethrough: 15% Chance to not be parried.

2H:
Mirror chance is 25% for 2H.
Parry is 20% for 2H.
Strikethrough: 30% Chance to not be parried.

DW final parry chance: 36%*70% = 25.2% (means DW negates 25.2% of 2H damage, 2H DPD drops to 74.8%)
2H final parry chance: 20%*85% = 17% (means 2H negates 17% of dW damage, DW DPD drops to 83%)

96 2H crush: ~23.72*0.748 = ~17.74 DPD
94 1H crush: ~25.37*0.83 = ~21.06 DPD

99 2H crush: ~27.46*0.748 = ~20.54 DPD
99 1H crush: ~32.93*0.83 = ~27.33 DPD

For attacks that hit the 2Her, 25% are mirrored. This means that 25% Damage is returned(since parries already taken out).
**Edited b/c I forgot self-preservation returns them @ 2/3rds! Thanks Rogue for mentioning that.

Adding these in, we get new DPDs as follows:

96 2H crush: ~17.74+(21.06*.25*2/3) = ~21.25
94 1H crush: ~21.06

99 2H crush: ~20.54+(27.33*.25*2/3) = ~25.10
99 1H crush: ~27.33

As it stands now, in PvE(before parry/mirrors, b/c mob DPS is tough to calculate), 2H DPD is roughly 80% of DW. You have to add a little to that for both anti-parries(30% vs 15% strikethrough), and mirrors, which will increase 2H DPD. Again, I can't say as to how much, so these numbers in PvE *only* deal with offensive power. DW should be higher though. By how much I can't say though. **It also comes to mind that against higher lvl mobs(aka...near cap...that's when they start hitting hard enough to make mirror'd attacks have a real impact), 2H will get closer and closer and eventually pass(especially adding in magic) DW the more you are able to mirror...just something to remember.

In PvP, 2H has roughly 95% DPD of DW. Note that this is only considering DW vs 2H though, leaving archers/casters out of the equation. Considering what the 2 builds are supposedly good for, and especially in 3v3 fights, the damage returned might be enough to turn the tide, who knows.

As is, I could see 2H getting another small boost, but only to PvE...but something to realize. DAs increase both DW and 2H's DPD by 20%, so the skill is "even," just like the ones that have % chance to proc are actually twice as strong(in this case DA from DW is 1/2 as strong). Just because DW DAs more, it's only b/c they're swinging 2 weapons with a lower damage per hit(Explantion below). So since 2H is ~95% of DW's DPD, if you wanted them exactly even, DA chance for 2H would need to be 0.95/1.2*x = 1, solving for x you get 1.2/0.95, or ~1.26. So DA for 2H would need to be ~26% to even them out. Would that even them out? Yes. Is it necessary? Not really, since they aren't designed to have the same DPD.

Originally Posted by StormGuardian

Double attacks for 2Hers triggers 20% of the time, so adds 20% damage. Now with DW it's a little tricky. We have a base swing of 2 weapons but have to add damage for triple and quad attacks. Triple attacks have a 80%*20% + 20%*80%, or 32% chance of happening(DA triggers for either the 1st or 2nd hand, but NOT both). This adds 1 attack, or 50% damage. Quad attacks have a 20%*20% chance of happening, and add 100% damage(2 more swing) 4% of the time. All in all, DA adds 50%*32% + 100%*4%, or 20% damage.

Edit: I'd much rather have a "counterattack" skill added in to protection or weaponry. You could give 2Hers double % on it, maybe 10% vs 20%(or just make it a single attack, so 1 weapon, perhaps offhand for DW, and for 2Hers it'd just be another attack), and have it only proc against melee attacks. A similiar skill has been suggested multiple times, and would obviously have to be balanced into all builds. Just my thoughts

2nd Edit to take into consideration self-preservation and a mis-calculation on average DPD

[RogueTigeR]

I have tried dw vs 2h in PvE and PvP... for piercers that is...
PvP: w/o a doubt.. for piercers... 2H is much much stronger
PvE: I just got to the point, about 1-2 months ago that my 2h'er out kills than dw.. my dw skill is/was very high for a lv 80... and my 2H'ed associated skills (2H, Mirror, Crit, Overcrit) are now way past level.

Do I believe something needs to be done to buff 2H'ers?

Yes, and a double attack buff just might do the trick. Self Preservation was a major major nerf to the 2H'er.

Originally Posted by StormGuardian

As is, I could see 2H getting another small boost, but only to PvE...but something to realize. DAs increase both DW and 2H's DPD by 20%, so the skill is "even," just like the ones that have % chance to proc are actually twice as strong(in this case DA from DW is 1/2 as strong). Just because DW DAs more, it's only b/c they're swinging 2 weapons with a lower damage per hit(Explantion below). So since 2H is ~95% of DW's DPD, if you wanted them exactly even, DA chance for 2H would need to be 0.95/1.2*x = 1, solving for x you get 1.2/0.95, or ~1.26. So DA for 2H would need to be ~26% to even them out. Would that even them out? Yes. Is it necessary? Not really, since they aren't designed to have the same DPD.

Ignoring how MUCH of an increase to give 2H for the moment....

Just pointing out the asymmetry, which was the original focus of this thread. Your approach is to give 2H (non-staff) a larger benefit from another skill than other styles would get. I support.

But ANY of the buff skills could work this way, and result in essentially the same overall increase in dps. The difference with DA is that it would be "lumpy" instead of smooth.

Similarly, further increasing the benefits of crit and/or over-crit for 2H would/could provide a similar (and more fun, imho) increase in dps in a similarly "lumpy" manner. I think that would be pretty fun, since bigger crits are always fun.. and the randomness of it would make PvP a bit less .. well.. predictable.

If you instead had some proportional / equivalent increase in say the pierce/crush/slice specs you would achieve the same thing, but would affect dps... smoothly. Conceptually you could add a skill (or tack onto an existing one) that decreased delay for 2H (non staff) weapons, to achieve a similar "smooth" result.

Originally Posted by StormGuardian

Edit: I'd much rather have a "counterattack" skill added in to protection or weaponry. You could give 2Hers double % on it, maybe 10% vs 20%(or just make it a single attack, so 1 weapon, perhaps offhand for DW, and for 2Hers it'd just be another attack), and have it only proc against melee attacks. A similiar skill has been suggested multiple times, and would obviously have to be balanced into all builds. Just my thoughts

2nd Edit to take into consideration self-preservation and a mis-calculation on average DPD

Well, the countrattack skill has some flexibility in the design, too. You could have it apply only to 2H non-staff... or, to be kind, not make it a new skill at all (Prefer that for protection -- the weaponry page is getting full), but add it as a side benefit to the 2H skill (now I am really skylarking).

Chromically, that fits the description of the 2H as a more defensive, counterattack oriented style... but then again so does just plain old bigger crits... the 2H weapons are HUGE.

OK. I can deal with 2H never being better in PvE... although there is some indication that it can be, sometimes, if you are over skilled... but it also seems like the gap should be narrowed some.

Sounds like a decent tweak could promote some 2H participation... and likely ffor lower levels, too..

Right now, even though I have just gotten the 53 2H slice, I am farming with dw bca's. Cookie cutter I know, but, at level 58, with decent (not quite at par with the dw) 2H skills, my kill rate with the 2H epic is about than 80% that of the dw. That's pretty huge. If it were 90%, and provided, say a 5%-10% improvement (at my current level) in PvP, I would use both.

Gonna experiment, some.. but right now 2H is looking like a dead end in terms of overall gameplay experience for me.

-Ane

[RogueTigeR]

I propose 2 ammendments to the 2H''er:

1. This is tricky, as there are many options, we could go a defensive route and provide a skill where 2H'ers take less dmg on attacks that they mirror, or an offensive route, and provide a skill that is counter to self preservation, and increases mirrored damage. Frankly, as I would like to see the 2H'er become an option for high level PvE, I would prefer the defensive side.

2. So 2H'ers are supposed to lack the raw DPS of DW'ing??... but shine in PvP you say??.. so lets actually make them a weapon others are envious of...
New SKill: Thrash (weaponry lv 60): Every point in this skill provides a .33% chance of striking all enemines when critical striking.
*this would not only kinda balance the whole AoE imbalance vs melee thing going on, b/c the skill is open to all melee, but would buff 2H'ers b/c their crit chance is so much higher than dw'ers.

[Smashbros]

bump

Originally Posted by RogueTigeR

I propose 2 ammendments to the 2H''er:

1. This is tricky, as there are many options, we could go a defensive route and provide a skill where 2H'ers take less dmg on attacks that they mirror, or an offensive route, and provide a skill that is counter to self preservation, and increases mirrored damage. Frankly, as I would like to see the 2H'er become an option for high level PvE, I would prefer the defensive side.

Every style should at least be an option for high level PvE. Support. Independently...

Originally Posted by RogueTigeR

2. So 2H'ers are supposed to lack the raw DPS of DW'ing??... but shine in PvP you say??.. so lets actually make them a weapon others are envious of...
New SKill: Thrash (weaponry lv 60): Every point in this skill provides a .33% chance of striking all enemies when critical striking.
*this would not only kinda balance the whole AoE imbalance vs melee thing going on, b/c the skill is open to all melee, but would buff 2H'ers b/c their crit chance is so much higher than dw'ers.

I think this heads in a good direction, but I am not sure that the spreading damage would be particularly effective, since arena fights tend to concentrate on one player at a time, to eliminate their dps. Spreading the damage would allow currently unattacked players a fair amount of time to heal. Much more intimidating (but not unbalanced) would be to have 2H have the occasional ability to inflict additional damage in PvP on a single opponent when there are multiple opponents in play.

Following your logic, I counter-propose the following:

Instead of spraying the damage across all three opponents, the 2H weapon would have a chance to have increased damage to their current target, while there were still multiple opponents in the fight. In a sense, for them, this would be the reverse of vengeance.

The new skill would be amended to (something like) providing a 0.33%-0.5% chance per level to inflict additional damage on their current target, during a crit (only). The amount of additional damage would be equal the the amount of over-damage the crit provides (above base) times the number of opponents in play in excess of one.

Were it up to me, this would not be a new skill, but an amendment to the Overcrit skill, that would apply only to 2H users.

-Ane

[Raith]

Originally Posted by Aneron

I think this heads in a good direction, but I am not sure that the spreading damage would be particularly effective, since arena fights tend to concentrate on one player at a time, to eliminate their dps. Spreading the damage would allow currently unattacked players a fair amount of time to heal.

*thinks of arrowrain....

somehow Glitch says Arrowrain was a massive boost in damage and one of the more powerful skills... Rogue's idea is to essentially give 2Hers a more effective version (archer 10% vs. 2H 33%). Tbh, with very little actually going for archers, that skill would take away one of the very few things going for them.

Besides... Beldaron is on one of the higher ranked teams in Arena right now. He has used a 2H slasher since like level 9. He's a damned good one too - he can already put out as much damage as my bow, plus gets mirror and better crit chances. I'm not covinced 2H is as bad as some believe.

[Smashbros]

Originally Posted by Raith

*thinks of arrowrain....

somehow Glitch says Arrowrain was a massive boost in damage and one of the more powerful skills... Rogue's idea is to essentially give 2Hers a more effective version (archer 10% vs. 2H 33%). Tbh, with very little actually going for archers, that skill would take away one of the very few things going for them.

Besides... Beldaron is on one of the higher ranked teams in Arena right now. He has used a 2H slasher since like level 9. He's a damned good one too - he can already put out as much damage as my bow, plus gets mirror and better crit chances. I'm not covinced 2H is as bad as some believe.

make a 2h piercer then.

[flipynifty]

Originally Posted by Smashbros

well i was looking at the Weaponry skills, and noticed that most skills have dif %s for 1h and 2h weapons, but Double Attack doesnt.

soo my suggestion:

Make it able to effect 2h weapons either .4% or .35% per lvl, soo 35-40% at lvl 100, compared to that 20% for 1h.

just thought it might help even out the playing field, and make 2hers a legit choice for boss fights.

agree 100% using a 2h slasher i still find to be WAY less effecient than DWing... this might even it out.