Overpowered Builds for PvE, Vote Here

[Pansy]

If you're trying to determine class balance, there is a lot more to consider than DPS. We casters can do the most damage in a hurry, but that's all we are good at. We don't do any melee damage to speak of with Angelic Aura, which we have to use because we don't have any defense. And when we run out of mana and/or energy, we are toast.

There is also a wide array of defensive skills and gems available to counter casters, so we are certainly not the best at PvP. Some of the very best arena teams have no casters at all. The last time I was in the arena, our fight came down to a capped caster against a good melee fighter, who healed faster than our caster could even damage him.

If you want to balance PvP, look at healers. It's kinda frustrating to have to kill a good player three times when it's hard enough to do it once. I've been in the arena several hundred times, and I can tell you that good defense beats good offense.

[Faithfulservant]

I'm sure jeff will make the right decision. He doesn't like to nerf,so chances are,he'll just give a skill or small buff to the proper,weaker fighting styles

[Kerrlahg]

He isn't going to nerf any build types anymore. He will just give a buff to all the other builds, which is effectively a nerf without hurting everyone's feelings. It's a pansy way to avoid some of the whiners and to make everyone else happy.

With that said, MOAR PIERCE BUFFZ PLOX.

But seriously, I think when the lvl cap goes to 85 (assuming stat skill cap stays at 140) some of these issues will be resolved. I know an extra 20 levels in Magic would help me with both killing speed against lower mobs and survivability against the toughest of mobs. I will be honest and say that with my piercers killing speed is not an issue when fighting 89+ mobs.

Regardless, no build can match what an DD caster can potentially do in any PVE situation. I'm unsure about what a real DoT caster can do in PVE (we already know DoT>DD when faced head-to-head 9/10 times). Potential DD damage is so far above and beyond what anyone else can do it's impossible to see where the balance is. (Try a theoretical max trishot vs max dd crit, but try not to laugh much).

I see no other build that can even come close to a capped DD caster's overall PVE effectiveness.

Players can set themselves up to defend against DD when going toe-to-toe in PvP, mobs do not and can not do this to the same extent.

[Kerrlahg]

P.S. Please don't patch the imbalance with a hard-counter. A hard-counter (like a mandatory Rabid Aura to nix whipper healing) completely ruins build variety.

If I see mobs with an anti-DD aura I'm going to your house and I can't promise I won't punch you in the nose. -_-

[Nemesiss]

i voted for dual whippers, they have good kill speed but are the only ones who can efficiently farm in heroic mode with no downtime for regen every other fight due to crazy healing, and having a whip is only way to solo very high lvl bosses or even tank super high bosses.

[RogueTigeR]

I voted for whip/shield... they are the ultimate tank in PvE.. next would be dual whippers, then offensive casters IMO.

[flipynifty]

i voted for casters as they can kill mobs in 3 casts at times in red zones...

So it's been a long while since I played and what not so I'm not familiar w/ all the new skills et cetera (yes that's the actual latin for "etc") but DD caster's are only good at cap. Honestly how many players are gonna grind to cap as a caster? The build is tough to maintain as said earlier, and rarely go beyond soloing . . . I forget the colors but +3 mobs. And nerfing them is just gonna make them even more annoying to play thru at lower levels.

[Nemesiss]

caster built properly rock at lower lvls

[Sanluciferr]

I would like to know what is Glitchless trying to figure out, Casters for daily farming are the best but.... Dw Whippers are the best for bosses or 7+ lvls mobs.

So i cant vote if im not sure about the question.

Casters are the worst for 7+mobs that i can tell you.

[figgy]

Originally Posted by Sanlucifer

I would like to know what is Glitchless trying to figure out, Casters for daily farming are the best but.... Dw Whippers are the best for bosses or 7+ lvls mobs.

So i cant vote if im not sure about the question.

Casters are the worst for 7+mobs that i can tell you.

That is a good point, is the question about farming for trohpies I.E. red mobs and down or for those high level bosses?

With reds on down, not withstanding the personal bias of the same small group of people that for some reason hates whip users, casters are awesome.

While fighting high end levels mobs or bosses, whip users are able to keep alive and outlast the bad guys there is a definite advantage here.

So can we fine tune this question Glitchless? Is this about pve to farm trohpies or pve for high level bosses and mobs for glory and epic tp's?

The answer for the former would not be the same as the latter.

[Destruction]

Originally Posted by Mangayatay

glitch im wondering & little bit concern why u let the initial ingenuity of creating a nice game that makes me addicted and others as well be let out in a drain with the subjective whining

and ohhh... here's a simple tips of beating a high level boss:

PWNing a boss = buy/use/grind tons of TCs + spend more time playing+ eating lots of trophies + make most skills 90+ as possible

and i think that way you can let others eat your dust coz they have lower skill levels than yours ---> isn't it common sense and logical that more is better than less???

Yeah, I have changed my mind about what I voted on. I don't have any vote on this discussion (so feel free to actively remove my vote on dual whip users). Over the last couple of hours I have thought about mangay's words, and I agree-having skills above level 90 when the cap is only at level 80 is what creates the appearance of OP for some classes/builds, but that isn't to be blame on the build itself.

I also take back my words about casters.

[figgy]

Well said Dest.

There are some op toons out there, that is not in disagreement, but that is because they play the game hard and invested lots of time and money into it to create an awesome toon. It is not the class that made them op but the effort. Mangayatay deserves to be op because he worked long and hard at it. He is also correct in being concerned that all that effort will be wasted because of people not putting in the same work to create a good toon but instead will just complain that it is all unfair.

I salut Mangayatay's hard work and effort, he deserves to be one of the best. He should not be punished for it which seems to be the nature of these threads.

There are no weak classes, just weak players
There are no op classes, just op players.

F

[Revanche]

Why is it just offensive casters? DD and DoT should have separate lines. I know dot's aren't taken very seriously, but I plan to switch to them near cap, and I don't want to find an indirect nerf to general caster dmg when I get there.

[jayali]

I totally agree with Dest and Mangayatay, it's down to the person behind the toon and not the build

[Raith]

I would assume that everyone agrees that If I have my skills 10+ levels over my level, and you have yours 10+ levels under, then it shouldn't matter what weapon I use and what weapon you use. Comparing someone with all his combat related skills at 89 and a finished stat-build to someone who barely has a couple at 79 is silly and an unfinished stat-build is retarded.

This does not mean, though, that one build and another build are balanced, or that certain builds are not innately more powerful than others. The fact is, some builds are innately stronger than other builds and this is a fact. Claiming that someone has more skills does not change this. On some level, this in inevitable. But at the same time, all builds should at least be viable and this should be the real issue. Which builds are innately more dominant and which builds are simply, by comparison, not viable.

If two people have equal stat-builds and equal skills, who wins? If a DW whipper duels a DW piercer, and their skills are equal, does a piercer ever have a chance? If a DW crusher and a bow user have equal skills, who wins? For some of you who claim that caster-classes throws a lot of distractions about how fast they kill, make sure you don't so the same thing. You are right that all skill-builds are not equal. This does not mean that all weapon styles are.

[Conqueror]

Originally Posted by Raith

I would assume that everyone agrees that If I have my skills 10+ levels over my level, and you have yours 10+ levels under, then it shouldn't matter what weapon I use and what weapon you use. Comparing someone with all his combat related skills at 89 and a finished stat-build to someone who barely has a couple at 79 is silly and an unfinished stat-build is retarded.

This does not mean, though, that one build and another build are balanced, or that certain builds are not innately more powerful than others. The fact is, some builds are innately stronger than other builds and this is a fact. Claiming that someone has more skills does not change this. On some level, this in inevitable. But at the same time, all builds should at least be viable and this should be the real issue. Which builds are innately more dominant and which builds are simply, by comparison, not viable.

If two people have equal stat-builds and equal skills, who wins? If a DW whipper duels a DW piercer, and their skills are equal, does a piercer ever have a chance? If a DW crusher and a bow user have equal skills, who wins? For some of you who claim that caster-classes throws a lot of distractions about how fast they kill, make sure you don't so the same thing. You are right that all skill-builds are not equal. This does not mean that all weapon styles are.

Well said Raith.

This hard work crap is just a bunch of lollypops. I have worked just as hard on my toons as anyone else has.

But facts don't change.

Take two equally skilled players of the following types and who wins:

bow user (no whips) and whipper --- winner whipper
dual wielder (nonwhip) and whipper --- winner whipper

Take any combination except an (offensive caster -- whipper) and I'll put my money on the whipper.

Even an offensive caster will lose most of the time against a whipper to be honest.

There are two problems; Why don't you try and address these without chanting the same repetitive mantra about hard work and I might even buy what you have to say:

(1) Beast Masters
Beast masters use whips (lower damage slashers) because their pets are supposed to make up for the lack of dps of the whips. So in theory
(whip dps + pet dps) = (dual wield slash dps).
In reality, (whips + pets) have the higher dps; but for our purposes lets take them to be equivalent.

SO WHERE THE HELL DO THE HEALS COME IN

Common sense dictates, that if two things are equal
(whip dps + pet dps) = (dual wielding slash dps)
then a buff to one necessitates a buff to the other.
Beast masters get an insane ability to heal. What the hell do dw slashers (bow users, dw crushers, dw piercers) get ?

You seem like an intelligent guy Figgy. I know that you are a whipper and it is in your best interest to preserve the status quo. But come on man: are you mired so deeply in your own self interest that your ego does not even permit you the chance to acknowledge the validity of what I am saying ?


(2) Casters
The gems that casters use are simply insane.

In the graph below, I added the max damage of the inferno gem and the equivalent flare up (purple line). The red line shows the max damage of several archery sets (max arrow + max bow damage).

Yes your eyes are not kidding you. The level 20 inferno and the highest level flare up almost add up to a max damage of 1k. Imagine the base damage that casters will have when they start using epic gems.



Casters draw gems extremely fast (every 2 seconds or so at higher levels). So the delay, in my opinion, does not justify the insanely high damage that they can do. Nothing matches up with a double cast of 6k. Not a trishot, not a quadhit --- nothing.

In pve, casters are at an innate advantage with such powerful weapons. Mobs can't resist or counter such powerful gems at anywhere near the efficacy of actual players and they are slaughtered.

Really what else can I say. You fools can't see something that is obvious and is sitting there right in front of your face.




EDIT:
But to be honest, I do not care if anything changes. Only reason I am speaking here is because I want people to know the truth. As an archer, I can do hybrid builds while still using a bow. So I can just keep throwing in whatever is most overpowered at any given time --- sure my bow and arrow will never be enough by themselves and I will need to level up 10 times as many things to keep up but who said that life was fair.

[lankas]

Conqueror nice post, but dont forget that 90+ crushers do more dmg than 99 archery too

[Nemesiss]

so can slashers..

[figgy]

Conqueror,

Yes as Lankas said a very nice post, lots of words and a very nice chart, well done. However once again it is full of half truths and misdirection. Your main point in that wonderful post is "So where the hell does the heals come in?" The answer is that they do not come in. The rabid gem took care of that, the healing which is (was ) the main advantage of a whip user is gone. Please try again, this time with all the current updates and all the relative information and not just making random statements. I also can post things like:

dual 89 crushers vs dual whip users - crushers wins
bow user w/whips - bow users wins

The bottom line is that the healing has been nerfed, and without healing the bm class is not even close to being op so please do not continue to make your arguments based on a skill that does not exist. That ended when the rabid gem came into play.


F