Beastmaster at low levels

I've read a fair number of posts which indicate that the classes balance out as the levels increase. However, after playing a modest 4 classes so far (1 to t3, 2 to t2, and one still in t1), I've found the Beastmaster to be definately dragging behind. Perhaps it's me, I don't discount that at all, but after looking over the class listing, I can't seem to find any that don't have their primary focus available to them until post-10.

Since the primary focus of this class, the pet imo, isn't something available till then, that strikes me as a bit of an imbalance. I'm thinking that a way to correct this might be to give the class a (very, very) weak level 1 pet when they start out, or put a level 3 pet in the pet shop in Castille. Without the whip and points spec'd into Beastmastery, the extremely weak pet wouldn't do much to benefit other classes who might pick it up, but would allow the Beastmaster to start getting some benefit of their class from early on. Alternatively, a low level drop could be put on the Drunken Fisherman, perhaps? I'm leaning towards a low end pet being the best option to address this perceived imbalance, though I could be wrong. I know that the idea of class-specific items received a thumbs-down, however to every rule, there's some exception, right? The only class specific item in the game-a BM pet in Castille!

Other options. Whips seem pretty great out of the box, but on the trip to Stronhad, it starts to seem very lackluster for a beastmaster to be using a whip/shield. To me, going with a 2h weapon, a different 1h and shield, or a bow, seems a bit impractical, forcing the player away from the weapon that the class is obviously intended to be using, the whip. Should whips be stronger, or a level 5 whip be in Castille?

Barring the chance that someone shows up and posts some great advice for hitting 10 and attaining a pet without undue pain in the meantime, I'm intending to leave this character logged out with the passive training in beastmastery going until it's high enough for me to buy a Turtle in Castille (12 beastmastery). At such time, I'll have another character or two that I can head back there with and donate funds to get said pet for the beastmaster (or perhaps run a Sewer Rat back from Penelia to Castille).

I like the skills that the BM has, they look interesting. The class overall has a nice appeal to me. Going 10 levels of slogging until I can get a pet doesn't really sound like fun at all however.

Thoughts?

Your char doesnt need to be lvl 10 for having a pet.
What you need is to have your pet skill to lvl 10 Its pretty easy to get it to lvl 10 since it admits both combat and spirit trophies. I could use the sewer rat when my char was lvl 4 and I have heard of guys that could do so even at lvl 2.
So basicly concentrate on trophies and sacrifice them to the pet alter in the church.
Cheers!
EDIT: I thought about it and maybe what could be done is whips having a bonus when equiped ( just like staves) that lower the pet skill requirement for equiping a pet. So basicly if you have equiped a certain whip you could then equip the rat having pet skill of 5 for example.

i think the idea is you use you pets instead of magic, like for heals etc ask doug hes got a decent level beastmaster

I understand that it's just beastmastery that has to be at 10, my apologies if that was unclear. To quote myself:

I'm intending to leave this character logged out with the passive training in beastmastery going until it's high enough for me to buy a Turtle in Castille (12 beastmastery).

However...is that really how the class is supposed to be played? Perhaps something in the class description along the lines of "bring your passive learning to 2, start Beastmastery on passive, then log out until it is high enough to use a pet. Roll another character to make the cash to afford that other pet"? Seems a bit screwy to me. Also, in response to your edit, that still leaves the issue somewhat unresolved, as the cost of the turtle will be prohibitive for untwinked beastmasters. Even lightly twinked won't be sufficient, that's a pretty significant chunk of cash for a character of that level, don't you think?

Thanks for the great tip about the spirit trophies, however, that'll be handy (once I bother to log the BM back in next week, lol). That's pretty odd that it is outside with 3 that only take combat trophies, yet takes both, with no notation that it does so. Had no idea, and probably never would have figured it out if you hadn't mentioned. You rock.

Edit: Jerome, how do you use a pet instead of magic before you have sufficient beastmastery to get a pet? Lowest pet I'm aware of requires 10 beastmastery, right? I'm not sure if you read my original post...

Edit #2: Also, speaking of whips...there is an odd weapon gap here. First town has level 3, the next whip is level 8 in the 3rd town, with no level 5/6 whip in Stronhad. I recall a whip stretcher in the first town, which I thought might be a solution, until I saw the 1k gold price tag, so crafting a whip to suit the gap isn't as much of an option (not that it was a great option, being forced into crafting/praying it's on the auction in Castille/Stronhad if there is a level 5/6 whip recipe).

So it's two issues I see needing to be addressed, the lack of low end pet issue and the lack of a level 5-6 whip in appropriate location.

If you really can't stand the lack of pet damage early on, you could invest in Mindbending and buy a Krozzix or two.

I'm really looking more for a balance discussion about it than a direct solution for me personally. Is it reasonable that beastmasters be put in the situation that they're in pre-pet? Spike beastmastery early and get an alt to pay for the pet, or suffer without an alt that has the cash/availabilty?

Also, the gap in whips available is something I'm interested in hearing more experianced players discuss. Did you spec into something like pierce/2h, then stop and put whips on passive for a few days in town 3?

Just seems like the class and it's equipment feels very unfinished to me. Was this one of the more recent classes implemented?

[doctor-warlord]

well spell casters arent that effective either at low lvls many classes arent perticularly good till the reach at least lvl 10 in one of there skills which is fairly easy due to passive advancement and trophies but beast masters will probably be very strong as soon as there lvl gets higher

As far as im aware most players who use pets use em as a secondary, doug for example uses archery with pets i think at the end of the day you only go maybe a day or without em its no big deal in the long run

Since you can't use a pet right away and you don't like the whip gap, don't use a whip until you have a pet. Whips are only useful when combined with a pet anyway. Train slashing instead to keep the effectiveness of your str/dex distribution.

Originally Posted by doctor-warlord

well spell casters arent that effective either at low lvls many classes arent perticularly good till the reach at least lvl 10 in one of there skills which is fairly easy due to passive advancement and trophies but beast masters will probably be very strong as soon as there lvl gets higher

Spell casters can still cast spells, however, which is more of the point I'm tring to make. Could you imagine playing a wizard without being capable of casting spells until Wizardry 10? Perhaps a Weapon Master...no weapons till 10. Regardless of if the role the pet plays, be it healing, dps, whatever...the class is designed to maximize it.

For whatever reason I can't figure out, merely discussing the class instead of the responses that I seem to be getting is too much. Too few familiar with the concept of "balance discussion"? Isn't that the sort of thing to get tossed around pre-release? There was one response on topic though, and for that I thank you, sir or ma'am.

Sorry NightOwl, but it seems like you're trying really hard to ignore all the options that you have in the game just because you want a pet earlier.

I am not going to give that attitude much creedance.

yeah im getting the same feeling i just kinda gave up lol, i mean whats he gonna do once hes got his pet, sit there watch it attack maybe go afk?

Originally Posted by Somneil

Sorry NightOwl, but it seems like you're trying really hard to ignore all the options that you have in the game just because you want a pet earlier.

I am not going to give that attitude much creedance.

I'll agree that there are options around it. I don't find them to be viable however, and I'm attempting to discuss how appropriate it is to require such. What pretty much everyone who has posted has said is to spec into other things and switch, thus wasting time/trains, or use passive training and buy a pet with an alt). To me that doesn't make sense for a class to require that nonsense in building a character. A melee wouldn't build without a weapon until they had level 10 in weapon skill, a caster wouldn't refuse to use gems until 10 in the appropriate magics...no other class in the game is in this situation of being built around something that they *cannot use by game mechanics* until they've been around a while, at the same time having to spend training time that isn't useful until 10 levels of training are in.

I intend to use the weapon that benefits the pet the most, a whip, so any time I spend training other weapons is 100% wasted once I have a pet, since I'll promptly dump it to take advantage of the Beastmastery skills that require a whip. You seem to be taking the stance that I should spend time training other weapons to use until I have a pet, then switch to the whip, and not look back at the time invested on other weapons/magic as a waste? I'd fully agree if I got the same beastmastery benefits regardless of needing a whip or not (for example, if the class received as part of it's class ability the whip effects without the whip). Please explain why you believe that training other weapons that will never get use again as anything except wasteful?

yeah im getting the same feeling i just kinda gave up lol, i mean whats he gonna do once hes got his pet, sit there watch it attack maybe go afk?

Not at all. I'll be making use of the pet fighting, and gaining the benefits of the pet, the whip/beastmastery/class bonuses. Are you suggesting that I continue to use other weapons while minimizing the pet investment...for a pet class? Don't get me wrong, for any other class, I'm not speaking for or against how much to invest into beastmastery, the whip, the pet boosting skills, or anything else. I'm speaking specifically of the beastmaster class, who by name, class ability, and description, is designed to make the most possible of a pet.

Neither of you have really provided any facts to support your points (ok, that's not true, Jerome, did you make any points to support with facts?). Jerome, you mentioned someone who uses archery with pet. Is that a beastmaster, using a whip (and taking the penalty of using the bow with the whip), and working on making the most out of the pet-focus of the class, or is it an archer class with a pet on the side? From what I see of the beastmastery abilities, they *all* require a whip except for the petsmanship ability itself.

Somneil, your only suggestion is to waste time/points training into things I'll never again use, as far as I can see. Am I incorrect? Please enlighten me.

At the end, neither of you even agree with each other. Som says use magic, Jer says use a pet instead of magic.

One last time, I'm not speaking about other classes using a pet as a bonus, I'm speaking of a beastmaster attempting to maximize the pet (and the class bonus of being a beastmaster) without wasting time investing into garbage that won't be needed again throughout the career of the character (this doesn't include blue magic, I'm sure I'll have that up a bit, and I already have the gem you mentioned, Som).

At the end of the day though, I don't care. My beastmaster is staying parked until beastmastery hits 10, and I obtained a rat with an alt that I'm transferring over. Hopefully this is reviewed by those with the ability to change things, and it provokes a little consideration for the class. If any changes are made, my beastmaster won't be affected one whit, I'm going passive until the pet is available for use, and that will likely be long before any changes are made (if any are going to be made). If you think that it's purely about me, you're quite mistaken.

Ok let me explain this game to you.

For melee classes (beastmaster included), they are all pretty much on the same ground until level 10ish. There's 100 levels in this game to grow in your own direction, but to start...to start...melee all have to learn the basics of fighting in their class. For beastmaster that means without a pet.

Another example would be the vampire. He doesn't get to use his bonus right off the bat either. It's not until he can deal a whopping 10 damage in combat does he get to leech even 1 HP.

This is not an instant gratification game.

And I think you'll find once you actually do get your pet, that its going to start out very supplemental to your damage, nothing you do until you get further into the game is going to make your pet an absolute beast. It's a supplement to your own melee.

And no I don't consider training other weapons to be wasteful if it gets you further in the game, isn't that the whole point, to advance by any means at your disposal?

I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that you have all these options available to you in this game...and all you care about is the measely 5% bonus you get with your pet and how to "maximize" that from level 1.

I don't think you lacking the patience to develop your beastmaster is a class balance issue.

If you can't progress through the first 10 levels of the game without a pet then you're doing something wrong. That's all I can say.

If you really want to get down and dirty about it, though, in the class description of beastmaster it says "they only slightly prefer melee" so why don't you work your magic skills more?

The answer, of course, is because you're going to play it how you want to play it. You're going to ignore all the courses that divert from your ideal and you're going to consider it a balance issue until your ideal is met.

The problem we face with that, however, is that one person's ideal does not an imbalance issue make. All the tools are there for you to take a beastmaster by the reigns and do well in the game with him.

Does that mean you're going to get it right the first time? Probably not. I've gone through about 20 different characters of all different classes before I figured out what I liked and got used to using all the stats. It's a learning experience.

Anyway, let me say this...if a lower level pet is implemented...say level 3...here's what's going to happen. EVERYONE will have one. Yes, everyone. Because its easy to get petmanship to level 3 and the supplemental damage is very nice. Everyone will have one and at that level your 5% bonus won't mean squat. So it wouldn't just be an upgrade to the beastmaster it will enhance every class out of the gate. Does that make more sense?

As much as i love helping new people get a grasp of the game, I think its really quite unfair on me and somneil and anyone else who tries to help anyone if the person we are trying to help tries to find every little possible flaw in the help and advice we offer in a game where we are infact learners and beginners ourselves. Im not gonna sit here and start my usual rabble of verbal abuse and **** talking/flaming i would if you were someone who i thought could take the joke but in regards to how horribly you have taken advice and suggestions i really really feel you deserve it. Unlike camli however who i apologize to deeply from the bottom of my heart, that was undeserved but kept me amused for ten minuites at least, and that is all thats important.

Well...am I the only one that sees NightOwls point?
I think he is right about the issue of beastmasters unable to use their main bonuses untill they rise the pet skill to lvl 10. I consider that this is pretty unfair to this class having in mind that:
1) They cant use pet untill they have lvl 10 pet skill
2) Their main weapon is pretty basic untill they got the ability to dual wield whips
3) The gap between low lvl whips and moderate lvl whips.
As I said a solution to this would be having whips that decrease the skill needed for equiping pets. This will only affect chars that use whips. The rest of the players will still need the normal lvl 10 pet skill for the first pet.

Originally Posted by Somneil

Anyway, let me say this...if a lower level pet is implemented...say level 3...here's what's going to happen. EVERYONE will have one. Yes, everyone. Because its easy to get petmanship to level 3 and the supplemental damage is very nice. Everyone will have one and at that level your 5% bonus won't mean squat. So it wouldn't just be an upgrade to the beastmaster it will enhance every class out of the gate. Does that make more sense?

pretty much sums up my feelings on this the level 20 pet skills look cool as, im 99% sure that they make up for 10 slow ish levels

Actually I will concede on one point and that's the whip gap. I think there should be a level 5 or 7 whip available in Stronhad and there's not.

[doug]

well tbh i thought th the damage on my beastmaster was lame and tht it was struggling to get tht far so i modified my beast master into an archer and just raised archer stats so i dont actually use any beast mastery skills bar petmanship to actually equip the 2 pets i use (petmanship 30) and i ahve never raised my skill for whips and dont plan to the damage i do from archery is awesome and glad i like switched.

so i cant really suggest how to train a proper beastmaster as i switched the class as soon as i could afford the equipment xD

Oi, where to start. This looks good:

As much as i love helping new people get a grasp of the game, I think its really quite unfair on me and somneil and anyone else who tries to help

I'm becoming more and more certain that you're not reading what I wrote. I'm not looking for help, I'm looking to discuss class balance, though I think I've mentioned this a time or two.

Som, you wrote too much for me to include in one quote, so I'll just cut a choice bit or two.

Originally Posted by Somneil

Ok let me explain this game to you.

For melee classes (beastmaster included), they are all pretty much on the same ground until level 10ish. There's 100 levels in this game to grow in your own direction, but to start...to start...melee all have to learn the basics of fighting in their class. For beastmaster that means without a pet.

Another example would be the vampire. He doesn't get to use his bonus right off the bat either. It's not until he can deal a whopping 10 damage in combat does he get to leech even 1 HP.

Level whopping *2* pierce 2h Weeden Spear, 1-11 damage. That's a good bit lower than level 10 (after the first hell level) to use a pet, don't you think? Vampires can get at least some use out of their class ability, though it's minimal I'll admit, they can something.

All melee have to learn the basics of fighting in their class...except the beastmaster is a pet class, with pet bonuses, designed to use a pet. How many wizards *cannot* use spells until they get to 10 in some casting attribute? How many Weapon Masters get to 10 in a weapon attribute before they're capable of using a weapon? I'll answer for you, NONE. How many vampires are *prevented by the game itself* from leeching any hp until 10 in whatever stat you choose? None, they can get that Weeden Spear and have some potential to use the class benefits.

And I think you'll find once you actually do get your pet, that its going to start out very supplemental to your damage, nothing you do until you get further into the game is going to make your pet an absolute beast. It's a supplement to your own melee.

That's a supplement that the beastmaster should have, that's why it's a beastmaster, and not a whatever else.

And no I don't consider training other weapons to be wasteful if it gets you further in the game, isn't that the whole point, to advance by any means at your disposal?

Hmm...not really, no. Did you spend much time when leveling a melee character training (just picking something out of the blue) Black Magic for the sole purpose of never using it again? But it would help you get to level 10, right? You could use those Black Magic gems to defeat mobs faster on your way to 10! Yet...is that really going to be beneficial when you're not going to use it again? Why not just create a character, and passive level everything to 10 before you play it? My point being, it's absurd to require training something that isn't going to be used beyond circumventing a mechanical limitation upon the class being played and gain the use of class benefits.

If you really want to get down and dirty about it, though, in the class description of beastmaster it says "they only slightly prefer melee" so why don't you work your magic skills more?

The answer, of course, is because you're going to play it how you want to play it. You're going to ignore all the courses that divert from your ideal and you're going to consider it a balance issue until your ideal is met.

I did bring invest into magic as well (well, prior to parking it until beastmastery hits 10). From an earlier post of mine: "this doesn't include blue magic, I'm sure I'll have that up a bit, and I already have the gem you mentioned, Som).
". You keep saying to use more magic, but I'm already using magic at a level appropriate to the level of the character.

ok, final quote then I'm done for now.

Anyway, let me say this...if a lower level pet is implemented...say level 3...here's what's going to happen. EVERYONE will have one. Yes, everyone. Because its easy to get petmanship to level 3 and the supplemental damage is very nice. Everyone will have one and at that level your 5% bonus won't mean squat. So it wouldn't just be an upgrade to the beastmaster it will enhance every class out of the gate. Does that make more sense?

Fair enough. How about a level 5 or 6 pet in town 2? Something prior to the hell level, and that seems to be a decent break point. I don't anticipate a level 5/6 pet being a huge balance issue when characters are moving up into the late teens/early 20s, do you? It would be no different that a melee training into blue magic and using some Krozzixes to boost their damage output, or a caster training staff a bit to whack mobs over the head (ok, staff users get a bit more boost than that). The supplemental damage that would be available to anyone that wants to invest to get it isn't that different than anything else-wizards *can* train up and use a 2h spear if they want, warriors *can* train up magic and use some supplemental damage from that if they want, so really...what's different, other than Beastmasters get the short end of the stick?

Edit: Doug...do you think you'd have obtained better results as an archer with a pet, than a beastmaster without a whip?