Glitchless; Memories of Dawn; and PKs

First-time poster; two things:

1. I've been keeping up with Glitchless since spring 2001 when talk of Dawn first started circulating. I was a freshman in college then, and Everquest had been out for two years (I think); people were clamoring to get on board the MMORPG bandwagon and the market was flooded with gobs of alpha and beta stage RPGs (many of which never saw the light of day). Dawn impressed me due to several game design elements -- enormous player maps; realistic night/day cycles; breeding-based, rather than spawn-based, models for mob population, etc. However, the one characteristic that impressed me beyond all others was perma-death. The third-rail of MMORPGing, perma-death has never been introduced in any commercially viable MMORPG to date (of which I'm aware). For that reason alone, I waited for Dawn to go beta.

I'm still waiting. :-)

I began to check-up on a few dot-com-bubble companies once a year to see if they were still kicking. Amazingly, Glitchless never shut down its website. Every year or so they'd come out with some cryptic message talking about this or that. I even played or RWK for a month or so until I realized that it wasn't quite for me.

Then, a week ago, I made my yearly visit to glitchless.com and noticed the debut of Nodiatis. Wondering if this was some sort of RWK v.2.0, I headed over and was intrigued by the opening screen-shot of the woman on the pillar (if intrigued is the right word...) I won't bore anyone any longer -- I've enjoyed the beta so far from what I've seen. I'm a lvl 6 warrior in t3.

Again, glitchless has come up with some interesting game elements -- passive and active skill sets that are not increased directly via battle; completely item-based magic (which, again, was an element from Dawn), and little things like choosing your text and background colors. Also, I'm not sure if budgeting, bandwidth, or nostalgia prompted the art-work visuals and Final Fantasy-esque music, but it brings me back to the day when RPGs on the SNES were the bomb (my favorite video game experience of all time is still playing through FFIII).

Gameplay is simple. Nodiatis uses a basic variable-ratio reinforcement schedule (the same schedule used by slot machines) to condition players to want to play/level/obtain newer and better characters. It's a formula that made MMORPGing what it is today, though nothing quite new there. Good amount of character diversity and stat customization. Robust trades-skills. Adventure Time (!!). All around a neat and fun game.

I'm intrigued to see what Glitchless has in store for Nodiatis. Above all, I hope that this game will bring in the revenues needed to see Dawn go beta for the good of the un-inspired MMORPG market that exists today. I haven't played a computer game seriously since Deus Ex back in college, but I'd be the first to plop down 20-bucks a month for Dawn. Don't know how much I'd get to play --career, girlfriend, other interests, etc., but I'd sure as heck support the artistry of the game!

But I digress...

2. Player Killing and Perma-death. The third-rails of gaming. Looks good on paper, but what player actually has the guts to risk the character they spent 50+ hours leveling in a duel or dungeon? Glitchless, I love that you have tried to implement PKing, but I'm not sure you've stayed true to what was promised in Dawn (not that Nodiatis is Dawn, but the concept of PKing that I fell in love with originated there). First, PKing is socially frowned upon by Glitchless. Just look at the stat sheet for any character. PK kills are listed as "dishonorable" while PKKs are "honorable." Pkers flash red "for all to see." Perma-death is imposed only upon PKers killed in a duel, but not upon their victims (which, presumably, is more fair . . . though not as compelling). PKers can only loot inventory items, not equipped or stored items. Frankly, I can't see much PKing going on in such an environment. There's just not enough reward. And Glitchless has long been a standard-bearer for "great risk with great reward!"

Granted, Glitchless might just be playing it pragmatically. There might be tons of focus group studies saying players won't play in a PK-heavy universe. That's fine. But I wonder how Glitchless decided to structure PKing the way they did. Was it a "split-the-baby" approach? Does Glitchless really think the current set-up is the most fun/compelling?

Instead of perma-death, has Glitchelss considered non-perma death PKing? Maybe just make Pking a more fun/less risky part of the game -- everyone can duel anyone; still only loot from inventory; players can see how often and how many players a PKer has vanquished, etc.

Or, of course, Glitchless could go all the way and make PKing the real deal. Full-bull Pking: no identification of Pkers. No restriction on looting. Dog-eat-dog delicious. Hey, its the beta, right? Let's get some data on what players would REALLY do in a true PK environment. Give the industry something to talk about... after all Glitchless, no commercially viable game has ever done PKing right. Maybe Nodiatis could be the first and reap big profits and fan base. Or mabye no one would play and Nodiatis would go under. Who can say?

But, hey; I understand the delimma. No one wants to risk the company they've been nuturing for 7+ years on something as trivial as PKing and perma-death. Then again, with great risk comes great reward.

Keep up the good work, Glitchless. I'll see you game-side.

Sincerely,
Frosty.

Imagine if you will, spending years of your life putting together with your own bare hands, the most finely-tuned customized car of your dreams.

Now imagine, the first time you take it out of the garage, that some ******* sideswipes your dream car with his '68 Gremlin.

This emotional analogy, brought to you by Somneil.

Before I reply, let me reiterate: I'm enjoying Nodiatis. I think it's a good game. These are just my thoughts on PKing and Perma-death relevant to beta testing, MMORPG's in general, etc.

****

Somneil,

Are you analogizing Glitchless's creation of Nodiatis, or a player's creation of a character? Assuming a character, I think you make the classic argument against perma-death. As I noted, few players have the fortitude to risk a 50+ hour player on anything in a game.

But, for argument's sake, if Nodiatis was pure PK and perma-death (meaning, anyone can force combat and the loser perma-dies), I don't believe there would be any more PKing than there is now. As it stands in Nodiatis, a PKer can be forced into combat and perma-killed. That wouldn't change. The only change is that non-Pkers could be perma-killed. However, because the penalty on the PKer wouldn't change, I don't believe PKing would be any more prevalent than it is now. What would change is the innate FEAR that every player would have while playing. Sure, any given player probably wouldn't be PK'ed, but the risk of perma-death would sure make every moment more exciting, wouldn't it? More "real"? People would certainly be nicer in chats, wouldn't they? No more donks. Real alliances; real factions; real grudges. Skepticism of every other player met along the trails. A real sense that the world of Nodiatis was, indeed, a hard and forsaken land.

And yes, some non-PKers would be perma-killed. But, my, wouldn't such a player remember which character committed his character's murder? Wouldn't that player begin a new character immediately . . . ?

"Hello, Somneil. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my character; prepare to die."

Now THAT sounds like a compelling game!

[Glitchless]

The main reason why that could be so disasterous in Nodiatis and not in Dawn is the limitation on group size. If the top players of the game decide to turn to thuggary there will be nothing stopping them from acquiring a stranglehold on the entire game because there will be no way for the masses to rise against them.. just underleveled groups of 3.

If I were on top and a higher level than anyone else I would have no problems, and even enjoy, collecting by killing off any rising competition but only if I could have free reign to all of their items that they drop. I would do this because I am a prick so the game should be protected from people like me.

I have not pk’d yet but I would be pk’n as much as possible in Nodiatis, especially newbies without affiliation to anyone yet and no one to carry out a vendetta, if I could at least remain anonymous (no flashing warning lights etc. murderers and thief’s don’t have that in the real world which is why they can keep getting away with it).

If there was no perma-death or penalty I would probably spend most of my AT killing other players if it paid out nothing more than experience because I enjoy the game this way. Again, I am a prick and enjoy the competition of other people and having them whinge about me killing them.

As it stands I won’t ever pk in Nodiatis because the risk is not worth the rewards. If I lack the integrity to be able to kill a player without any thought I don’t know what would stop me from looting everything they have? The risk of losing all my items would be sufficient penalty for someone finally pkk’ing me instead of a perma-death, unless I too could eliminate the bounty hunters after me. (Or can I? Should I look into this more before I talk? (sorry =P))

[doctor-warlord]

well i would agree that the flashing face in chat is a bit to obvious for people who hunt pk'ers for easy gold so it shouldnt flash in chat at least it would be better if it only flashed if you where in the same square as pk'er so its only shown on zone list that way the pk'ers get a bigger chance of hiding from people that might hunt them

Originally Posted by Somneil

Imagine if you will, spending years of your life putting together with your own bare hands, the most finely-tuned customized car of your dreams.

Now imagine, the first time you take it out of the garage, that some ******* sideswipes your dream car with his '68 Gremlin.

This emotional analogy, brought to you by Somneil.

Whhhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy *smashes keyboard*

as i see it with PK'n the major risk is trying to get back into town to use trophies other than that you can run and hide and even escape battles you know you can't win(thanks for that update) all your left with is timing and or using free account to scout your way around to get in and out of town.

Originally Posted by doctor-warlord

well i would agree that the flashing face in chat is a bit to obvious for people who hunt pk'ers for easy gold so it shouldnt flash in chat at least it would be better if it only flashed if you where in the same square as pk'er so its only shown on zone list that way the pk'ers get a bigger chance of hiding from people that might hunt them

i like that.
atleast that way you would have to have information from other players as to who is a pker and there is always the deception from ppl who would want to distract a pkk'r from them by falsely outing someone as a pk'r so they could maneuver.

Nah there should be no notification. I want to join your group, play with you for 30 minutes, get a little bit of your trust and kill a boss with you so then I can kill you and take the drop so it *really* pisses you off. Now that would be fun =)

[doctor-warlord]

that would be mean though you would need to make sure if its a group of 3 that you control 2 else it might be tough to steal drops

Or help two slightly lower levels complete the boss and have an even'ish fight with them both..

[doctor-warlord]

well its harder to beat two then one but i guess its possible if they are both at least 2lvls lower then you

Originally Posted by Frosty

First-time poster; two things:
after all Glitchless, no commercially viable game has ever done PKing right.

Are you serious? Look at the truly pvp based games, knight online guild wars hell even runescape has a **** hot pk system that was all or nothing style. to be honest this is the frist and only game where the pve even intrests me, its like a challenge to be as efficent as possible in the two hour time frame you get to play. That deserves a big congratulations to jeff on the basis something about playing against a database and a couple of random number generators is dull as **** generally speaking.

Even RWK did pvp right. Its not in a traditonal sence, who has the bigger sword and most hit points, but the kingdom system is pvp is it not? i mean you dont build 10k kds to earn enough gold to ge the gear for 9x9 a DE do you? You build 10k kds so you got the gold to **** on any other kid that cant spell or has an appalling char name or whatever other piss poor excuse you can think of for nuking someone.

I guess the point of my post is that having played knight online like a champ and dominating every kid that try their luck with my clan for like a year (kreep, carnac west if you played it), apve system that is actually compelling is a breath of fresh air, perhaps one with limited longevity of play but a breath nonetheless. And if and when i eventually get bored of working my way up through the towns and killing bosses im sure SleepyHollow will be a name you will all see flashing red, for about a day before i discover the joys of permanent death im sure .

Remember Diablo 1? Excluding all the cheating that has had the best pk system ever. You play with them, you turn on pvp damage and then you start slashing at them while they are in a group of monsters. Never any warning that you have become hostile to them, they just die. Awesome. Plus you got their ear =) Diablo 2 sucked with the only becoming hostile in town and the warning.

Just play Knight online, that pk system is insane, losses and gains for killing players is minimal, its more that players compete over areas where bosses spawn in a nation v nation style very simple but very effective, only 4 classes really cleaverly balanced but yeah thats off topic :S

Originally Posted by Glitchless

The main reason why that could be so disasterous in Nodiatis and not in Dawn is the limitation on group size. If the top players of the game decide to turn to thuggary there will be nothing stopping them from acquiring a stranglehold on the entire game because there will be no way for the masses to rise against them.. just underleveled groups of 3.

This is why i like pvp in this game just the way it is thanks.

I want to play.

play=fun.

Being abused by some jackoff teenager with no life =

not fun.


*slurps coffee*

I'm not a jackoff teenager with no life but I do enjoy abusing players that take that stance. =)

It's even more fun when they hurl abuse at you like you care but it makes the game interesting when they try and kill you back.

I would be just as sociable and mannered on the forums and in real life as would be expected by anyone, myself included, but in the game I would be utterly ruthless as far as pk’n and trash talking goes because that is where I find most of my fun =)

[flipynifty]

where dawn