Balance Changes after Arena

[Pale]

Spear of the Unstoppable change:

Damage 70-350
dalay: 22

str 50 dex 50
Additional: This piercer can utilize slashing skills as well as piercing skills as if it were a slasher.

[Pale]

Axe of Soul Stealing Change:

Damage: 60-410
Delay: 25
str 50 dex 50

Additional 30% vamping effect.

[kingsz]

the 4 sec stun on the crusher is not bad, its the aoe auras that still have full effect on the proc, if a rank 1 is 44 and 40% the procs should be effective at same percentage so you cannoth just aoe stunlock 4secs per proc...making it already a lot less effective and perhaps this makes warhogs etc a viable option. same as blind etc

whips should be looked into since only the helkok is viable...*pet haste*
double cast is severly broken and limits the effective pve builds
dot has all kind of procs and is op
samurai bow should be added to have a chance to land instead of 100%??

in the end it will always be difficult to balance it out but when arena is just about stunlocking lame stuff it really destroys the limited pvp fun we already have...there is no more tactic whatsoever just stunning...yay?

abnegation should perhaps be fully active at 2min mark so the arena bonus will make it more likely to decide rather then stunlock?

well there is my 2 cents =)

[arra]

How about some sort of limited-period of diminishing returns for incapacitates, as game mechanic or a skill?

[Blaze]

pale's weapon suggestion specs are idiotic to say the least. i personally cba to think up reasonable numbers. and why would i bother~ that's glitch's job.

melee lgs i think are lacking:


sword of solar sheen. yes it has 10% hit chance. and we see how many use it with that op effect. the dps it puts out is subpar (tho most melee is) and it has overall no real redeeming quality. plenty of weapons have hit chance. some quite a bit more like kris. then get 1-2 other effects that aren't a joke like 100 flashburn.

axe of soul stealing. beheader and decay are awesome slashers. for dotters. if you're gonna be a melee 2h slasher. your main 3 options are runed flurry. (10% hit and 7% multi) or cursed blood. (5% hit 6% devastation aura). soul stealer has lower max damage, and higher delay. than both of these slashers. to top it off it has a proc that is extremely underwhelming. a heal that doesn't increase in bonus (and i believe doesn't overcleanse?) and a chance... a chance. at a 500 damage dot. (unlike masq's 100% eh. tho even if it was 100% i doubt it'd become viable for this slasher. staves at least have benefits)

ender of suffering. a pvp only crusher. useless against 2/3rds of the toons in nod. make it avoid kites (omg first lg in game to do so) and give it a second proc that is somewhat useful and maybe it'd be more popular.


not gonna list whips/staves cuz while they are melee weapons. their builds are ultimately different.

are there more lg weapons out there that suck? yes. but they at least have unique procs that may be utilized in some special way in the future. example: blight barb dagger. has unique skill of double puncture potential. not very op. but someday. with game changes. maybe that will be a viable option. so no need to change lg itself as much as hope creator has a gameplan with these more unique lgs in mind.

[Pale]

"abnegation should perhaps be fully active at 2min mark so the arena bonus will make it more likely to decide rather then stunlock?"

Good idea, as of now the lg skills not worth it. The epic skills are better.

[Pale]

IRP spears were used with shields, allow 2H Pokers to be used with shields or add that as a benefit of some of the 2h piercers.

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by Blaze

pale's weapon suggestion specs are idiotic to say the least. i personally cba to think up reasonable numbers. and why would i bother~ that's glitch's job.

melee lgs i think are lacking:


sword of solar sheen. yes it has 10% hit chance. and we see how many use it with that op effect. the dps it puts out is subpar (tho most melee is) and it has overall no real redeeming quality. plenty of weapons have hit chance. some quite a bit more like kris. then get 1-2 other effects that aren't a joke like 100 flashburn.

axe of soul stealing. beheader and decay are awesome slashers. for dotters. if you're gonna be a melee 2h slasher. your main 3 options are runed flurry. (10% hit and 7% multi) or cursed blood. (5% hit 6% devastation aura). soul stealer has lower max damage, and higher delay. than both of these slashers. to top it off it has a proc that is extremely underwhelming. a heal that doesn't increase in bonus (and i believe doesn't overcleanse?) and a chance... a chance. at a 500 damage dot. (unlike masq's 100% eh. tho even if it was 100% i doubt it'd become viable for this slasher. staves at least have benefits)

ender of suffering. a pvp only crusher. useless against 2/3rds of the toons in nod. make it avoid kites (omg first lg in game to do so) and give it a second proc that is somewhat useful and maybe it'd be more popular.


not gonna list whips/staves cuz while they are melee weapons. their builds are ultimately different.

are there more lg weapons out there that suck? yes. but they at least have unique procs that may be utilized in some special way in the future. example: blight barb dagger. has unique skill of double puncture potential. not very op. but someday. with game changes. maybe that will be a viable option. so no need to change lg itself as much as hope creator has a gameplan with these more unique lgs in mind.

Solar sheen has better DPS than demon eye and a higher dmg proc on top of that.

Agree that axe of soul stealing is trash. Something that could be more interesting: on hit has a chance to apply an aura to your enemy which causes 5% of all healing they would receive to instead be transferred to you.

[Pale]

New 2h P: Piercer: The Riders Lance

Damage: 80-425
Delay: 22
Adds a 15% chance to both slice and dice when using this weapon.

[Blaze]

pale. you wonder why people call you an idiot. "let's exceed the max damage of any weapon in the game by over 50. and cut the delay of the weapon with the highest damage in the game. in half. then give it a solid proc.

[Blaze]

Originally Posted by Huggles

Solar sheen has better DPS than demon eye and a higher dmg proc on top of that.

Agree that axe of soul stealing is trash. Something that could be more interesting: on hit has a chance to apply an aura to your enemy which causes 5% of all healing they would receive to instead be transferred to you.

better dps perhaps. but the high max damage on hell hammer still qualifies it as unique imo. with potential for something in future.

[Pale]

Blaze, please try and control your impulses!

My post is a starting point for discussion. Am glad you think 15% s&w is a solid proc.

[Glitchless]

I wouldn't waste time suggesting effect changes or even values for existing LGs for this purpose. Just list the ones you think are lacking. For new effects suggestions you're best off using this thread which is referenced http://forums.nodiatis.com/forums/sh...ad.php_t=20450

[Tsutsu]

Just... lmao at pales damage and delays.

[Freakymagic]

Originally Posted by Yikeser

all I see here are lots of insults and zero bant

You sure look and sound like a duplicate forum account to try and cause drama.

[Soxson]

Originally Posted by Freakymagic

You sure look and sound like a duplicate forum account to try and cause drama.

lurkee confirmed

[ecnod]

Support pales buffs

[Huggles]

Having had some time to think about this, I'd like to make some points. I know this won't change anything, but it should be said.

Some people are claiming that the top teams were using stuns. That's true. The top two teams used classes that have lower DPS in order to get more melee haste for their group (Paladin with Tomahammer). The 3rd place team used crushers as well (though they had a variety of options).

What they aren't talking about is the fact that the top team has the best healer in the game and the 3rd place team (who is 3rd rather than 2nd simply because they didn't have as much time to queue) has the second best healer in the game.

Two of the three top teams focused their strategy on minimising the impact of the enemy's healer. Kainith's team focused on stuns, using very fast whips and the moderately-fast Tomahammer/Debrainer combination to maximise stuns. I think I recall seeing quakes as well being used by Algamisu.

Demontamer's team also relied on stuns, but had multiple other fronts of attacks against the healers. We used 2H Weaponry, Dark Knight, and Badgers in order maximise the effect of Gravebound. We also used Reaper Aura to further decrease healing.

Excellence's team strategy varied a lot, even after their mid-season reroll. They did use bif and crushers to attempt to stun the healer. They were also using a doublecast crusher to get the most out of Daring's shield effect. The last few times we happened to fight them, Dawl was so thoroughly protected from stuns that they didn't bother to try biffing. I can't speak for them, but I'm guessing they thought it'd be easier to try to simply focus on the person who wasn't benefiting from FDA, less damage taken due to bif, and Daring shields.

Tsu's understanding of how Gravebound works was incorrect so I'm sure that may have factored into their strategy, but they were still thinking about how to mitigate heals by using 2H, DK, and Badgers, even though they did it the wrong way.


So, how did each team counter each of these teams' strategies, especially with regards to stunning the enemy and trying to hamstring the healers?

1. Our healer got Hogs. They're not great, but they can allow you to keep drawing gems until you get a stoic again. He also added more stoics to his pouch when he saw that stuns were an issue. In order to overcome the limit of 4 stoics that won't pop, he went Paladin secondary. This allowed him to have more stoics that don't have a chance to pop. (Rare Stoic 9 with Pally 2ndary will always remain in play because 90*1.14 is more than 100% chance to stay in play). We used Deft Draw 5 to allow all of us to redraw Stoics faster after a shatter/Quake.

Our DPS (if you can call Nibbles that) got a Kris. I had all my Piercing skills at 0 when I realised I would need that weapon, but I went for it and it did well. Again, having a class that allows non-LG stoics to remain in play was an asset here.

Nobody really bothered trying to stun Demontamer, but he had a few stoics anyhow.

2. Defense through superior offense. Can't get stunned if your enemy is stunned. Kainith's team stunned so much that stunning them was very difficult. Of course, they also ran stoics. Somehow running stoics seems to be a common theme when we talk about avoiding stuns. Hmm...

3. Again, stoics. Paladin healer so he's able to run more stoics that won't pop. They also levelled their anti-stun skills significantly, and it was a noticeable impediment to our ability to stun them.

_

Do you think the lower ranked teams went so far in their strategies as the top teams did? I doubt it.

_

Also, on the subject of the Debrainer and Dazes in general: I've been saying for a while that Alcoholic is the best healer class because consistency in any situation is what matters most. 99% immunity to dazes, i.e. you'll pretty much never heal the enemy and always heal the person on your team who needs it, is a big boon. I don't think any healers who were complaining about Debrainer went that route (even as a secondary class). They made the conscious choice to have more healing power but not be immune to daze, just as Kainith and Nibbles made the conscious decision to go Pally and sacrifice DPS. Whose fault is that?


____

Long story short: yes, the changes to crushers/debrainer are going to go ahead anyhow, but many of you are delusional if you think the top 3 teams are there simply because they stunned. Kainith's team had more strategy in their stun game than most teams had strategy in their team, and that was just one aspect of their team.

Just as it'd be wrong to buff staff DD without requiring them to make investments in areas other than just spamming DDs, it's wrong to buff someone without requiring them to make investments besides just doing what they're already doing.

[Pale]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

The plan is certainly not to make crushers in general more viable, since they are already the best melee in PvP. They are getting nerfed in general and specific LG crushers that nobody uses are being buffed. If you want to point to specific slashers and piercer LGs that you think need a buff, this is a good place and time to do it, though, yes.

Please keep in mind that the miti Crusher and solar fury are widely used in both pve and pvp. I don't think there are any slathers or piercers used as much by melee. There many melee weapons used by others then melee.

[Pale]

Melee needs a counter weapon for pet heals as flashies are a counter to melee regen in pvp.