Drain gems

[Freakymagic]

Hey Glitch,

I know you have stated you only balance for 3v3 team arena; however, with the fact that we have more solo que arena then we do team arena can we get a more accessible counter to drain gems?

Currently only way to shut drain gems down is to be a staff user having next to no regen and casting heals, something not many builds can while still dpsing the enemy (staff dot/dd is about the only thing able to and they have to sacrifice a fair amount to do it). With the changes I do not know if stacking cnt now works to resist them (I know prior to the changes it did next to nothing) added to the fact that you cant use prevent gems to 100% stop them getting through any more (no longer blue so no replay).

I feel some form of a counter should exist that more then 1-2 builds can access, ESPECIALLY since we get so much solo que arena.

[Tsutsu]

I concur.

[Soxson]

Agreed. As a (semi-crappy) meleer, I'd like a way to counter drains other than raising my cnt very high which would screw up my overall stats intended for my melee build.

[Glitchless]

Casters are expected to dominate noncasters who aren't specifically built to resist them in the realm of casting, ie the use of gems. CNT is a valid counter to being drained, but of course it comes with sacrifice to use it. It also comes with more benefits than simply resisting drains.

Drains themselves are counters to some otherwise overpowered things, and making them easy to counter may cause an imbalance there.

I see your point, though. Having the ability to cast gems, which is a large part of the game, just taken away altogether against certain builds is probably not a fun aspect of PvP. A solution that didn't greatly disrupt balance doesn't come to mind immediately It would be interesting to hear if anyone had suggestions.

[ShadeDaScout]

maybe the amount of mana/energy drained should be based on cnc vs cnt, just like dd damage is, that way even if the drain goes through it won't be as efficient

[Darklords]

Lol glitch, your reply makes no sense with the changes you made within the last 6 months of nodiatis. You make blue prevent gems no longer blue so we can’t draw them rapidly. You then lower the % of them same gems. Actually fix cnt so that you need about 600 to actually work even against mobs. But you can’t find a way to balance drain gems. Go figure. If we add in the fact casters are now growling 20% of our dps. It seems you cannot add balance if u keep leaning to one side. However the odds have always been stacked in favour of casters.

[blackpanther]

How about a LG Impervious !?! Or a find on the map like the one in blood lake, to enhance the impervious gem that everyone already has

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

Casters are expected to dominate noncasters who aren't specifically built to resist them in the realm of casting, ie the use of gems. CNT is a valid counter to being drained, but of course it comes with sacrifice to use it. It also comes with more benefits than simply resisting drains.

Drains themselves are counters to some otherwise overpowered things, and making them easy to counter may cause an imbalance there.

I see your point, though. Having the ability to cast gems, which is a large part of the game, just taken away altogether against certain builds is probably not a fun aspect of PvP. A solution that didn't greatly disrupt balance doesn't come to mind immediately It would be interesting to hear if anyone had suggestions.

I run 807 CNT, Antimagic Rune, and max resist Auras with pally primary and get completely screwed by drains (and all dot effects in general).

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As for being able to somehow counter drains and damage as a non-staff user, it would be nice. I can't think of anything that's not overpowered except impervious reducing drain amount by a bit, like 5-10%.

[Glitchless]

Originally Posted by Darklords

Lol glitch, your reply makes no sense with the changes you made within the last 6 months of nodiatis. You make blue prevent gems no longer blue so we can?t draw them rapidly. You then lower the % of them same gems. Actually fix cnt so that you need about 600 to actually work even against mobs. But you can?t find a way to balance drain gems. Go figure. If we add in the fact casters are now growling 20% of our dps. It seems you cannot add balance if u keep leaning to one side. However the odds have always been stacked in favour of casters.

The lean will always be toward the side believed to be weakest. If the odds were "always in the favor of casters" and we've been buffing them for 6 months straight, yet there's still only one caster in the bottom of the top 10 of arena, maybe there's something a bit off with your theory.

Originally Posted by ShadeDaScout

maybe the amount of mana/energy drained should be based on cnc vs cnt, just like dd damage is, that way even if the drain goes through it won't be as efficient

If the builds that are shutting down others with drains are already CNC builds, then this won't change anything.

[Darklords]

Well just because they ain’t in top 10 doesn’t mean they ain’t top matieral. More than half the dotters ain’t even queueing currently. Enduir, Paul.

Maybe you should run the figures instead of assuming somthing is unbalanced due to standings in arena.

Nothing changed with my build other than the changes you made to pvp. Yet orence who is a dotter who would practically get 2 hitted because of the regen. With all the changes made he basically chews me up, I win by well timed ca’s but you may call that balance. But are you keeping 3vs3 in mind when you call it balance? Having 1 dotter casting at you is death within 10 seconds so god help 3 casting one target.

I personally feel that even discussing this issue is like talking to a brick wall, you seem to think casters should be able to tank all dps while dishing out a more than fair amount.

When MA won solo season as a dotter he would run drain gems and was one of the reasons he beat the prevent pouches. However some casters can’t adjust and complained until you changed it. (The way of the whiner is strong in nod)

[Darklords]

Also about 6 casters within top 20, haven’t arened for a while so maybe a few others. Primary classes may not be a casters class but doesn’t mean they ain’t. HK is 2nd he is a dotted. Some times I wonder if you know what even happens in nodiatis.

[Huggles]

If you look at highest win percentage, 1, 3, 4, and 7 are DoT casters, and 8 of the top 20 rating are DoT casters.


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I'm not a fan of massive changes, let alone massive changes in the middle of a season, which is why, again, I think buffing Impervious Aura slightly is the way to go. A 5-10% reduction in drains would make draining still viable in both 1v1 and 3v3 while providing some respite, especially for those with more MRe and PRe investment.

[Darklords]

All recent changes have been made during this solo season.

[Freakymagic]

To my knowledge Drain gems were used to counter prevent gems. 1 drain goes through and your basically screwed. However that was before prevent gems were changed, now as a non staff doter, prevents are laughable at how ineffective they are without pairing high cnt.

Currently the only person in arena i know 100% uses drains is hk, I assume other staff caster do as well or likely will come rush when they set them selves up for pvp (fastizio, hiddenhorror, dawl, all of wich are in the top 15 of arrena currently). On top of that i know myself and few others have debated going staff dot for rush in which drains are more then likely to be used.

Issue with drain gems is in castor vs castor fights your only option is to run bugs and hope rng is in your favor or use drains your self and hope you drain them before they drain you. Can run prevents as well but then your sacrificing potential dmg for rng chance to stop a drain gem. Yes you could run cnt, however this is yet again a rng chance (based on what i have heard even 800 cnt and you still depend on that rng luck)

Imo they drain far too over their length.
As shade stated have the total drain amount be effected by your cnt similar to dd dmg being lowered due to enemys cnt. At least that way if the drain does land you may be able to fight through the ticks till it wears off. This would lend melee/bms/pure archers to be more of a counter to drain gems , while castor vs castors still have to sink a considerable amount of stats in order to have a more reasonable counter to the drain gems.

If not that possibly have their duration decrease so they have same impact as they currently have but with more counter play (user cant start with 1 of them and win the fight because of it, they would need multiples or a 2nd pouch set up with them).

[Enduir]

[ShadeDaScout]

another suggestion is to keep the total amount of drain the same, but double the duration or so, thus more than 1 drain would be necessary to cripple casting

e.g. r12 exhaustion 600 energy over 20 sec, to 600 energy over 40 sec

[Algamisu]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

The lean will always be toward the side believed to be weakest. If the odds were "always in the favor of casters" and we've been buffing them for 6 months straight, yet there's still only one caster in the bottom of the top 10 of arena, maybe there's something a bit off with your theory.

Glitch, I recommend you keep track of wins and losses or reset reset them during rush so you can actually see which builds are strong. Some people, like me try pretty hard long before rush, but most just don't bother queueing a lot or trying hard at all before rush starts.

Perhaps you'll realize melee isn't as strong as the current standing might suggest and stop making it weaker.

[ShadeDaScout]

Glitch, I recommend you keep track of wins and losses or reset reset them during rush so you can actually see which builds are strong.

this

[Glitchless]

Originally Posted by Huggles

If you look at highest win percentage, 1, 3, 4, and 7 are DoT casters, and 8 of the top 20 rating are DoT casters.


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I'm not a fan of massive changes, let alone massive changes in the middle of a season, which is why, again, I think buffing Impervious Aura slightly is the way to go. A 5-10% reduction in drains would make draining still viable in both 1v1 and 3v3 while providing some respite, especially for those with more MRe and PRe investment.

Good points and corrections to my misunderstandings. Noted.

[Tsutsu]

The way I see it is that, 2 drains and even someone with 900 MRE can't cast anything at all. The only people who can really make decent use of the drains is staff casters, which already have a lot of advantages going for them. When they were increased in power, I feel they were increased too much. Perhaps an increased duration or halving of the amount would work. It's just kind of sad that all it takes is 2-3 drains in a pouch and that can completely shut down someones mana/energy. With double cast chance, 1 gem its self can completely drain someone. When you mix that with imperv so you can't even drain the mana/energy back from them it's a hard combination to beat. Specifically when they get some rng luck on their side and re-pull imperv right away etc. It's just frustrating sitting there watching yourself die while you cant do anything other than auto attack.