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Feb Patch Discussion & Deobfuscation |
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03-03-2014, 07:35 PM
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#1
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Administrator
Glitchless is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,569
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Feb Patch Discussion & Deobfuscation
Much like the size of the words in the heading of this thread, the controversy surrounding this patch has been unnecessarily inflated. We'll attack the talking points coming from the always-panicked naysayers here.
We'll tackle the big one first: downtiering. The initial change to downtiering - an enchanting rod ability that already existed in the game - yielded 1x to 2x the lowered tier item rather than the usual 1x. As was intended, this produced an influx of lower tier resources as players enjoyed the exponentially growing stack size and downtiered until their inventories were swollen. The problem was an epic gem with a high price for its level - Derinium. Players discovered that the low tier dusts that were normally in low supply could be made in drones by downtiering, and that they could create Derinium for a price that was below the store sell value. They quickly - well... if you're a crafter you know that nothing is truly done quickly, but some rushed to produce as many Deriniums as possible, making a profit of over 20k per gem selling to the store. We reacted by first nerfing the downtier growth and increasing the tier requirements for Deriniums, then did it again. Within 48 hours of the patch going live, the craze was over. Some complained about being left with inventories full of items they were intending to use to craft Deriniums. Others more rightly complained that the problem existed in the first place. Let's take a moment to analyze just how big this problem actually was.
If you've crafted before, you know it is a labor of love. The effort involved in acquiring, organizing, and putting together the resources necessary to create items is time consuming. It may not use RT creating soulbounds, but it uses IRLT. A player that had the patience to sit there and craft stacks of Deriniums, each recipe and each gem one at a time, may have actually been better off burning TCs with double accel had they gotten a few lucky chests. All our records show that the amount of gold produced by the Derinium rush was about 1/75th of the gold being dropped in chests and items during those 48 hours. It had virtually no impact on the game economy, and TC prices dropped during the time. Any influx in gold would result in TC prices increasing.
Why the craze then? It was naughty, novel, and felt exploitative. A few players adept at crafting probably made a few million gold, but the impact of that, especially considering what they could have been doing otherwise with that time, was rather insignificant. More significant was the reward given to those who reported the issue to us properly, reinforcing once again that the best thing to do is report an issue, not try to take advantage of it.
The question some of you are asking is why did we even implement the change to downtiering? Won't it hurt sellers of tier 1 resources? Yes, this change will inevitably lower the value of tier 1 resources, but one could argue that it is detrimental to new players' morale when they start getting tier 2 resources only to find they sell for less. Moreover, it is extremely important to remember why this change was done in the first place: to get low tier dusts in the marketplace and to increase the fluidity of the resource market in general. The end result will be the ability for crafters to once again make low level epics for affordable prices, something that will inevitably help new players.
Paid Reroll. There are not many complaining about this new feature. Those that do purport that the cost is too low. Compared to the previous cost of sacrificing all your gear for store sell value, rerolling, and then buying choice bits back (and often failing in that), the cost is indeed very low. However, the problem of developing characters being afraid to invest in top gear for fear that they would need to reroll at some point either to change their class or to take advantage of overskilling via rerollers boon was a worse problem in our eyes. Now players can feel free to buy badass legendaries, unproven ones at bargain prices, perhaps, and they won't incur terrible losses when rerolling to try out new builds with optimal class configurations. This change will be very helpful to those brave enough to try such a thing, whereas before the prospect of striking out in a new direction was as daunting for vets as it was for new players.
Enchantrashing - the 5 million gold ability that allows you to quickly destroy a resource repeatedly, each providing a 50% chance that it will uptier instead of being destroyed. "Why does it cost 5 million gold?" they asked. "Should I be worried that this is OP or UP?" they silently wondered. Well, for people low on time and inventory space (most everyone) this ability could be extremely useful. Just click, click, click, on the trash icon until your resource reaches the desired tier (or is destroyed) and you have just saved yourself tons of time with an echanting rod. Even items in your inventory can be enchantrashed immediately, with no warning message, allowing for far faster uptiering than using the traditional method. Is it worth 5 million? It depends on how much gold you have vs. how much time and space. Some people are already reporting loving it and buying it on multiple characters.
Spider Trapping - Not extremely controversial, but the true value of this skill is currently debatable. When maxed this skill provides 10 tiers higher silks but at 1/300th the frequency. For someone who always uptiers, this will save them time and produce more silks than they would have gotten. But for others who have enough resource space and patience to farm and sell all 30 tiers of silk, they may wish to not level or only partially level this skill. We're watching this skill to determine if it needs a slight buff or not.
In summary, we feel the shortcoming of this patch to have been overblown, and already corrected. We welcome constructive criticism, as it is a major guiding force for future patches, but there is no reason for the clan-festered hysteria that often arises from issues that are so easily corrected, or merely misunderstood.
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Computing the probability that at least one of the following events will occur:
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Probability
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03-03-2014, 07:40 PM
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#2
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Temporarily Suspended
Hoodrat is offline
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I still stand by my point that you should have held a group discussion regarding any possible issues coming from the downtiering buff. You could even involve players to help discuss or come up with possible exploits for future patches to prevent them from even happening in the first place. Obviously from this patch, your team cannot think of everything.
Nontheless, nice patch, good job fixing it, and woowooo !
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03-03-2014, 07:43 PM
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#3
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Seer's BFF
Excellence is offline
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Serbia
Posts: 511
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Ty for explanations Glitch. Yea I think that spidertrapping should be slightly buffed, of course not too much but some smaller change to make it worth it for everyonee, just my opinion  instead of 1/300 make it 1/200 or 1/100
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03-03-2014, 07:58 PM
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#4
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Administrator
Glitchless is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoodrat
I still stand by my point that you should have held a group discussion regarding any possible issues coming from the downtiering buff. You could even involve players to help discuss or come up with possible exploits for future patches to prevent them from even happening in the first place. Obviously from this patch, your team cannot think of everything.
Nontheless, nice patch, good job fixing it, and woowooo !
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The exact details of the downtiering changes were made public for discussion more than 24 hours prior to the patch going live.
__________________
Computing the probability that at least one of the following events will occur:
P(a or b ... or z) = 1 - P(!a and !b ... and !z)
Probability
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03-03-2014, 08:05 PM
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#5
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Seer's BFF
StormGuardian is offline
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: athens GA
Posts: 744
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As someone who was directly involved in the fix for the derinium problem, and who was crafting some(LOL), I figured I'd chip in here and give my thoughts on the patch.
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Originally Posted by Glitchless
Deriniums
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Well said, and even for the first couple batches being 35-40k per, still, stronger farmers would have made more farming...totally agree. Weaker toons, without LGs, could have made more with super crafting. Not to mention, not everyone had a master, or resources to start with, or the patience! Time = money, no matter which path you chose!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless
Why the craze then? It was naughty, novel, and felt exploitative... More significant was the reward given to those who reported the issue to us properly, reinforcing once again that the best thing to do is report an issue, not try to take advantage of it.
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What can I say, I'm naughty!
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Originally Posted by Glitchless
Downtiering
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Pros and Cons, both are good/bad depending on which side you look at it from. I think long run, it will be better for lowbies, and rerollers can use epics on the way to cap if they choose not to PL straight through. Ratio on lower tiers might still be a taaad too high though. Just my personal opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless
Paid Reroll.
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Yea, agreed, could be a little more(I mean, atm 1 LG weap is like 10 TCs to unSB. Just as long as there never is a primary class change option w/o rerolls.
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Originally Posted by Glitchless
Enchantrashing
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tl:dr - It's a storage buff, time saver, and a gamble. Take it or leave it
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Originally Posted by Glitchless
Spider Trapping
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Love it so far, only time will show how much higher tier silks show up...but might could push it to 3-5 tiers overall instead of almost 2 on average?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless
In summary, we feel the shortcoming of this patch to have been overblown, and already corrected. We welcome constructive criticism, as it is a major guiding force for future patches, but there is no reason for the clan-festered hysteria that often arises from issues that are so easily corrected, or merely misunderstood.
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Truths...take a chill pill...then haz sammich nao!!
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03-03-2014, 08:11 PM
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#6
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Temporarily Suspended
Hoodrat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless
The exact details of the downtiering changes were made public for discussion more than 24 hours prior to the patch going live.
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And you didn't think the first patch wasa little bit excessive and didn't realize that you could spend 200k for a t30 and get bunches of oats for low tiers? I mean, you can't expect everyone to point out a potential exploit, but you should know that that was a crafter buff and you know who the big crafters are. A few PMs regarding craft prices for whatevs if you don't have a quite clear knowledge of it goes a long way.
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03-03-2014, 08:26 PM
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#7
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Seer's BFF
Lurkee is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoodrat
And you didn't think the first patch wasa little bit excessive and didn't realize that you could spend 200k for a t30 and get bunches of oats for low tiers? I mean, you can't expect everyone to point out a potential exploit, but you should know that that was a crafter buff and you know who the big crafters are. A few PMs regarding craft prices for whatevs if you don't have a quite clear knowledge of it goes a long way.
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yeah glitch, instead of telling everyone about the upcoming patch, just PM a few choice people and let them shape the game. DERP
Hoodrat when even im making fun of you for arguing just to argue, you're probably truly being retarded
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03-03-2014, 08:33 PM
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#8
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Temporarily Suspended
Hoodrat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurkee
yeah glitch, instead of telling everyone about the upcoming patch, just PM a few choice people and let them shape the game. DERP
Hoodrat when even im making fun of you for arguing just to argue, you're probably truly being retarded
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I never said only PM a few choice people, I suggested him PMing the people who know the crafting system the best. I also never said don't give a patch notice, that is perfectly fine. Thanks for trying !
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03-03-2014, 09:34 PM
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#9
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Epic Scholar
hotshot64 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,068
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I concur that crafting is a huge pain in the ass, but has been made easier with this patch, especially for those of us in a mass crafting trade (potionmaking in my case) where you require thousands of tier 1 resources for one batch.
But rewarding 25 tcs didn't really encourage being honest, so much as it rewarded exploiting as much as possible, then reporting it for an extra reward ;p NONE OF WHICH WENT TO RAWR!!!1111ONEONEOEN
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03-03-2014, 09:44 PM
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#10
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Gem Pouch Expert
austen is offline
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 324
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here's why I quit, you made changes without even thinking aboujt the irl time involved, and you gave yourself a month to think about and test the changes, making those dern gem's yielded 30-60k per gem IF you purchased the mats off AH. you could have made more just farming chest, the ONLY real exploit was for pilgrims, who are not allowed to make gold unless they have alts. then you went and nerfed it with out even really thinking it through just like you didn't think it through for the last month, I say someone PK mike and bring Jeff back
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03-03-2014, 09:45 PM
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#11
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Gem Pouch Expert
austen is offline
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 324
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oh and I'll check forums from time to time, but I am done logging because of admin stupidity
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03-03-2014, 10:54 PM
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#12
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Auction Master
TemariChan is offline
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: With the man of my life.
Posts: 1,293
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In my mind, the new skill, Spider Trapping, is not worth leveling, I would rather get a random amount of 80+ rare silks (I only keep the rares of T21+) and uptier those every few days or so then spend a few weeks of only getting 1 Tier 30, thats the way I see it as it is being said it is for.
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03-03-2014, 11:05 PM
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#13
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Seer's BFF
Lurkee is offline
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*Content removed by admin. Please to not aggravate the issue.*
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03-04-2014, 12:38 AM
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#14
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Boss Hunter
Jarrhal is offline
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurkee
*Content removed by admin. Please to not aggravate the issue.*
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bhahahaha
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03-04-2014, 04:01 AM
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#15
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Seer's BFF
Roeth is offline
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 617
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Thanks for taking the time to make that post, Glitch. Much appreciated.
Regarding Deriniums :
The thing is, as you say, it FELT exploitative. But the real question shouldn't be that, but WAS IT exploitative. After all, you always tell people to use real data, and not their lizard brains.
If it was not exploitative - and your post goes on to say that you seem to feel it was not, and the real data supports that, and reasonably built toons could farm gold faster than making gold off deriniums - then it was not an exploit.
In which case, why nerf it ?
On the plus side, there are still a large number of low-mid tier dusts out there (I'd stopped downtiering at t12, fortunately for me - though only due to space constraints), so their will be a good influx of low-mid level epic weapons and suiting pieces over the next few weeks and months. I have managed to get a few weapon masters and consumables, and I see some competitive pricing going on for a fair while.
Last edited by Roeth; 03-04-2014 at 04:03 AM..
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03-04-2014, 05:37 AM
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#16
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Epic Scholar
Huggles is offline
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,845
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I think the real issue was the lack of paladin buffs.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless
If they put a nice icon on you it's beneficial if they put a mean one on the other guy it's detrimental.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless
The player was banned for using an exploit repeatedly without reporting it. There's only 1 proper way to profit off an exploit: report it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huggles
Old Delay/(1+haste%) = New Delay
For slow effects, use the slow % but as a negative.
Just repeat for multiple effects.
DO NOT multiply by 1+slow% to get your new delay. 1*1.4 is not the same as 1/0.6 and your answer will be wrong.
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03-04-2014, 07:16 AM
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#17
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Gem Pouch Expert
jaym is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 434
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ok done.
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03-04-2014, 08:44 AM
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#18
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Rare Collector
Oneangel is offline
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 768
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I really like all the new content and am glad the teething problems were sorted out quickly. My personal experience was that I logged on, heard about the problems, pmd glitch and 3 mins later it was fixed.
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03-04-2014, 08:53 AM
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#19
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Seer's BFF
Trojan is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: pakistan
Posts: 744
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FIRST OF ALL THANKS FOR NEW CONTENTS !!!
deriums exploit
so now i think derium was a huge exploit i know peoples saying 40k-60k is no biggy and u can farm that much but here is the thing 40k-60k avg chest u will have to farm fungi boss or around that takes 4min-10min ( rl time ) crafting a derium gem takes way less time than that for any smart person who knows how to use downtier properly anyway... so it was a huge bug and it got fixed i am really happy in a long term it wud have killed nod economy specially tcs prices when all u need to do is craft 15-20 gems to buy a tc that wud have jumped sky high in couple weeks
enctrashing
mixed feelings for this update i mean its good update but if u want peoples to really use it and buy it with 5mil gold this one will prolly need some smart tweaking
paid reroll
this is a amazing feature !!!! but its for most of those guys who have lgs lots of lgs !!! and most of them have tried all most all classes so we will prolly need some new classes to use this update really well but thats for the future atm love this update !!! but again new classes ploz <3
downtiering
was a bit overkill when i first tired it havent really tried it after the nerfs but i heared it got overkilled in nerfs now but still a amazing update really helpful for crafters and customers
all in all really nice updates but remember u can not keep everyone happy there are bunch of loud peoples that will always have something against the new updates listen to them but do whatever is best for nod in long run !!! cant keep everyone happy
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good or bad whatever i am i am .....not going to change and not going to pretend <3 and i will never be intimidated by anyone ever !!!

be careful of those alpha nerds !!!
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03-04-2014, 11:16 AM
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#20
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Boss Hunter
Master is offline
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,832
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Yea tro, Pretty much what I said as well..
Only way ill ever even remotely consider a reroll is if there is a new class that sparks my interest.
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