Ranger class design C&C (LONG)

[Raith]

OK, so I've played Nod for about 3 .5 years now, and have leveled chars as warrior, wizard, DK, and BM, but my main has always been a Ranger primary class. I'm posting to see if other people have thoughts about how the class design is supposed to work besides my own, as I'd generally feel comfortable saying that the Ranger is one of - if not THE - worst 'combat class' by actual design (meaning that the bonuses, on concept level, do not work).

I realize perfectly well that I could reroll if I hate my class, etc. This is not a QQ thread about my main char, it's an honest design C&C thread about the ranger class. I've tried a fair bit of stuff out with my Ranger, and I just don't see how the design works. I'm open to thoughts before I declare the Ranger a fail on Glitchless' part, but I think it's fair to say it needs work.
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All damage sources have a basic class with basic bonuses (Warrior for melee, archer for bows, wizard for DD, etc) and then have other classes that sacrifice general bonuses for more specialized bonuses, or for hybrid bonuses. So, a DK gets less melee bonus, but gets detrimental aura bonuses and so on. Theoretically, a Ranger is one of these types of classes - less basic bonus in exchange for a hybrid bonus. Originally, though... he was not a hybrid. He got 8-24% bonuses to minimum archery damage. The Green magic bonus was added in later to gain 3-9% green gem bonus, and then recently his archery bonus was changed to a 2-6% min/max bonus.

The original 8-24% to bow minumum means that the original design for rangers was not to be a 'hybrid' class, but a more consistent archer (at the cost of max dmg). Anyone who ran the numbers on Nod bows knows that this 'consistency' never appeared as it amounted to a bonus 4 or 5 minimum damage with the best bows in the game. Fail bonus. The 2-6% min/max bonus is a much more reasonable bonus, though of course far below the 5-15% max an archer gets, meaning you expect a ranger to make up for it with other bonuses. So, 3-9% to green sounds reasonable at face value (it can't be higher a druid gets 5-15% green).

But how does a bow-user make use of green gems? You can gain a 9% buff to green DD's.... but who would use this when Necromancy (which only applies to black w/o a staff) buffs black DD's by 35%? Who picks green DD + 9% over black DD + 35% ? Or you can use Green DoTs... since DoT arching is supposed to be a solid build. But again, Dark Patience (w/o a staff) applies to black DoTs but not Green DoTs... who picks a green DoT + 9% over a black DoT + 50%? Green only has HoT gems (which happen to be very mana-intensive, causing even more stat problems for an archer) which can get 10% (Remedial Focus) + 9% class bonus, so a Ranger could theoretically use archery + green HoTs to utilize both of his bonuses. I have tried this, and found it fairly innefective both in terms of mana and compared to other healing options. The only other optin is that the ranger bonus 'balances out' with the 1 or 2 extra dmg on a thorns, or 1 o 2 extra heal on a gaia. That is stupid. But of course, using a staff to get green bonus just means you are an underpowered druid who loses the 2-6% to bows.

My honest impression is that the 3-9% to green was tacked on as a 'OK this was a bad class design" buff that didn't make any actual build sense, it just buffed a few numbers on something that mattered back at level-cap 60 when the change was made, but no longer does. So... how does the 3-9% bonus to green actually work with the archery build? I've done arch-whip, arch-DD, arch-DoT, arch-shield, pure arch, and arch + r5 broadhead/haste, and everything, so it's not like I haven't tried stuff. I'm open to suggestions, but I think I feel comfortable saying that the class just plain isn't designed right. And before someone says "but the CA balances it out" just remember that nobody goes ranger for the CA ever. Any thoughts or builds I'm not thinking through, or does the Ranger design just fail?

[Jadakris]

In my eyes, it's a support class.. which doesn't make much sense because of the simple fact you only get 2/3 the bonus as a secondary class. Turning max bow damage into 4% and the bonus to green only 6%. Your right again when you say the CA doesn't really balance it out. It's a great CA..

But in reality you can build a nice Archer/Caster.. Green DoT's are cheap to use and with theft runes you can easily afford to cast them. But in order to do this, you really can't use broadhead or the haste gems of a higher rank simply because they are not cost efficient.

The real problem however isn't so much how the class works it's how expensive they are to make really well. Legendary armors can make a hybrid archer alot better, infact you almost need atleast 2 Raiden Sleeves or legs.. And that's a toss up, because the crit % is massive and you can gain an additional what, 10% to DoT damage?

And like you said, the bonus to Thorns isn't spectacular and the simple % to healing isn't that great either..

I've been trying to stick it out on my ranger for along time now, and just really don't think it's worth the time and money I will have to invest to make him mediocre at best.. And IIRC I was the one who actually got the minimum damage bonus changed into max damage, which only made sense after the two mob debuffs we saw..

[chloe]

i have been a ranger on almost every toon i make, i just pick it as i love the character description

[>.>]

IMO Ranger is fine. The bonus is not super OP but it is still just that, a bonus. You can use those black poisons to utilize the Dark Patience skill AND green poisons which get a bonus off the class. Personally i have 42 green dots in my pouch and 8 auras, no replenishers i rely on thefts to replenish me. Since the green poison uses both mana and energy in equal amounts it is easy to get it back through vamps. The bonuses provided on a Ranger class is supposed to by supporting that of another ie archer gets an additional ranged damage boost or if dot focused druid gets an additional green boost.

[chloe]

i think what the main problem is that not many people will pick this as a primary class. rather a support class when the pick a secondary class

[chloe]

note: for the record im not complaining about the ranger class, just stating things i think and what i see

[Jadakris]

Well, all in all there are plenty of builds worse than this.. which are used as secondary classes..

I mean Tactican bonus is awesome, but I dunno if I would go first class in it simply because the extra 5% doesn't help you at all when it comes to say.. fighting casters.. etc etc

Hundreds of ways to look at it really.. But in the end they are fairly balanced. And theoretically with LG's it's quite possible ranger is one of the strongest classes.. you never know.

And I can guarantee this. In order to make an archer people are like "OMG WOW" over, it's going to take about 45 billion exp in the right places (giving rooms for learnings etc).. and more money that any other class.

[Jadakris]

Altho I guess with the recent buff to DK's we can keep our finger's crossed...

[Barsoom]

My Ranger is about 3 1/2 years old now too and I'm not complaining. I went Druid as a secondary so I focus on the green bonus for DoTs. Replenishing is the key. My MRe and PRe are both around 140 (which is ok with skill bonuses, although I keep a couple of Transcendence/Wisp Lifts around in case). My Reg is usually down near 50 and I use Blessed Heals to heal. As long as I don't die (recovery without gems takes forever), I'm fine.

You should be able to do cantrip refreshes and go DD, but I've never had the time/energy to build a second pouch to test it properly.

I grant that it is not a great PvP class, but for PvE it is pretty nice. I look forward to the LG bonuses, but they are a while off.

[Glitchless]

Their CA does a whole lot of damage.

[Raith]

So the lack of synergy on class bonuses is balanced out by the CA? Allright, if that's the idea then I guess it is what it is.... that just seems funny to me when a ranger and a DK get the same archery bonus now, the DK does more 'whole lot of damage' in their CA, and the DK trades 3-9% to green (which is seems inneficient in the first place) for melee dmg buff, pet damage buff, detrimental aura buff, and PvP dmg buff.

but the point of the question was not a "zomg ranger sucks buff nao" it was a question about how the 2-6% to archery + 3-9% to green was supposed to work in a build without accepting half the bonus and ignoring the other half.

[Jadakris]

Well in reality the aura bonus is better than the green bonus in itself, but at the same time that bonus can be shattered..

The part I don't understand is why they get the extra 3% to PvP.. I mean the DK CA is better than the Ranger's really..

It just doesn't all add up in the end, I mean it might have at one point in time, but in the end.. the sheer lack of skills that allow people to cast better without having to use a staff really ruin the archery class as it stands.. Thing's could change that, but theres alot of sacrifice involved when you play an archer.

Personally, I feel they have alot of potential.. but as I said hundreds of times by now, it's going to take so much time to get it to work out probably and you may just end up being mediocre...

[>.>]

I use both of the ranger bonuses quite well and i have no issue. Also the damage of the DK CA can be cleansed/negated by the recent dot defense buffs (Sacred defender and Overcleanse)

[Glitchless]

Ranger CA does 26% less damage and has a 33% lower cooldown than the DK's whose damage is dealt over 10 seconds. On paper the Ranger CA is superior, but an argument can be made in either case.

The problem you've laid out is more to do with the lack of diversity when it comes to building a hybrid character (ie having to use black DoTs) and we have been working lately to try to increase the viability of true hybrids via new weapons and some skill changes.

[Jadakris]

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwe Gritwressssss

[paulodjohn]

at least its better then warlock ca..

[Claudia]

Originally Posted by paulodjohn

at least its better then warlock ca..

lol agreed paul, a lame 211 damage/heal at cap... 1 minute cooldown doesnt cut it, even the dumb warrior does 405 damage + mes at cap :P <3 warlock class for the bonuses to damage, all classes shouldnt be chosen based on CA's

[Raith]

lol yeah some CA's are not too amazing. If we are really going to get into a CA comparison, then I'd suggest some CAs are less desirable than the Warlock one - for instance, the Druid one does like 450 damage on 4 min. cooldown- and I'd agree the Ranger has one of the better damaging CAs (everyone underestimates the power of mez/stun, but w/e).

I'd also have to repeat that I'm not complaining about archery design, or saying the ranger can't be competitive in any way. I know solid archers that are trappers or craftsmen, and I know rangers that are pretty strong. So far, though, the best build I've found with my Ranger class is when I am Ranger/Druid (which would be better as Druid/Ranger, but w/e) and using a staff. 19% buff to green gems is totally solid, green DDs with this kind of buff do plenty of damage (I think I capped out at about 3300 with non-epic OPDs), and I'd argue that green DoT + green HoT with a 19% bonus to both can be really brutal... just pointing out what glitch is mentioning that he gets:

Originally Posted by Glitchless

The problem you've laid out is more to do with the lack of diversity when it comes to building a hybrid character (ie having to use black DoTs) and we have been working lately to try to increase the viability of true hybrids via new weapons and some skill changes.

and I can appreciate that it is on Glitch's radar and that they are working on something to make it more viable.

[Takeda]

Warlock is the one class that ppl would choose even if it had no CA.