Angelic changes - Page 2

hotshot64 · 02-01-2012, 05:58 PM

Btw keep in mind because dot casters only need cnc, and very littlte pst/mst (dot's cost nothing to cast with maxed skills and good runes) they can have TONS of defense. Inspect cyress as an example, and keep in mind I've seen him with much more defense than that.

Nurvus · 02-01-2012, 06:06 PM

I'll admit the stat system is in need of serious checking.

But I doubt it is a one-fix thing.
It's probably revamp or keep.

Who knows, maybe Glitchless has been working on it for a long time now.

hotshot64 · 02-01-2012, 06:06 PM

He has, and I guarantee there's a dot caster change coming. It doesn't hurt to offer suggestions and numbers that will help him in his decision on how to do it though.

Huggles · 02-01-2012, 10:03 PM

I think people should have to do and show maths with any idea they present.

hotshot64 · 02-01-2012, 11:15 PM

I provided math :/

Sanluciferr · 02-01-2012, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotshot64

I provided math :/

I provide meth.

Nurvus · 02-02-2012, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotshot64

He has, and I guarantee there's a dot caster change coming. It doesn't hurt to offer suggestions and numbers that will help him in his decision on how to do it though.

It's not the numbers that make or break a sollution, but the concept behind it.

He can do the right thing with the wrong numbers (and eventually get them right), or the wrong thing with seemingly good numbers. The latter is wasted time on something that doesn't work in the long run, but "seems to" in the short run.

My point being, when the problem is mainly on how much better DoT legendaries are compared to others' Legendaries (in terms of how much stronger a DoT'er becomes when wearing them), why try to change Angelic Aura to accomodate the current state of Legendaries, prolonging the weak state of leveling DoTers (they go from "meh" to "omg" with Legendaries)?

Over the course of this thread, I shifted from agreeing Angelic Aura might need to give a smaller defense bonus or apply a DoT penalty (or lower the DD penalty)... to thinking it should just stay as it is, and DoT Legendaries get nerfed.

hotshot64 · 02-02-2012, 12:13 AM

There are several things that need to change. As it is DoTers are tanks with insane dps. Both their defense and dps needs some minor tweaking.

Nurvus · 02-02-2012, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotshot64

There are several things that need to change. As it is DoTers are tanks with insane dps. Both their defense and dps needs some minor tweaking.

- They're not as good at tanking as real Tanks.
- They're not as good at damage as other DPSers.
- They may have an advantage in stat investment against DDers, due to how Cnt "double dips" against DD.
- They rely heavily upon the major boost they get from the Legendaries. (compare non-legendary DoTer with other non-legendary archetypes)

They need tweaking, but saying both their offense and defense is insane is overboard.

And let's not discuss Gem Shattering, okay?

hotshot64 · 02-02-2012, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvus

- They're not as good at damage as other DPSers.

I beg to differ. When you show me the dps that is as good against tanks as a DoT caster, I'll be shocked.

Nurvus · 02-02-2012, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotshot64

I beg to differ. When you show me the dps that is as good against tanks as a DoT caster, I'll be shocked.

There. Against tanks. Perspective.

Again, just like Tanks have Testudo, DoTers have a reverse(negative)-Testudo, because they do jack-**** damage for a while, until the DoTs start rolling.

And when I said dps - again I find dps pretty meaningless unless you're up against a Tank for a looooong while - I meant how Archers/2h'ers get big opener, and everyone except DoTers can do some frontloaded damage unavailable to DoTers.

It feels frustrating for Tanks to get most of their defense ignored by DoTers.
It feels frustrating for DDers to get resisted/reflected by Tanks.
If feels frustrating for DoTers to get bursted by DDers before their DoTs start rolling.

hotshot64 · 02-02-2012, 12:39 AM

DoTers have always had an advantage against DDers. Long ago it was mirrored blade, then when that got taken away they got a billion buffs so they have a leg up on them again.

Nurvus · 02-02-2012, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotshot64

DoTers have always had an advantage against DDers. Long ago it was mirrored blade, then when that got taken away they got a billion buffs so they have a leg up on them again.

Nope. It's the legendaries.

Let's talk about the concepts behind direct damage versus damage over time effects.

DDers get their Recastable rolling, wich gives them a boost to DPS, reaching their peak DPS much sooner than a DoTer.

DoTers get their DoTs rolling, wich slowly boosts their DPS, having a higher potential DPS, but take much longer to get there than a DDer.

In light of this, it is not possible to give DoTers the same (or less) potential DPS others have, and expect them to be able to compete...
The potential DPS and the survivability of a DoTer must be higher than that of the other DPSers that bring stronger upfront DPS/burst.

The whole "threat" a DoTer represents, is that even though they're pretty harmless in the first few seconds, they are a ticking bomb you need to defuse (kill) before it goes off.

Nerf the DoT Legendaries to be on par with the rest and see the results.

Tragicallyhip · 02-03-2012, 05:03 AM

DD'ers aren't out of the picture.

A match I recall is of Paul,DTM, and GT. Double DD with Tank

The result... it hurt. The stack of aoes and massing the potential for damage is still very apparent. The argument here is that you consider the dotters that are skilled and geared after spending time and millions on their setup are OP because your own setup isn't at it's full potential. You are basing your facts on a few well suited well skilled dotters...

If you would like to take a gander at the tops list < Experience totals... You'll find the dotters I"m sure you're all referring to, no lower than 30b exp... Basically in that statement alone we just determined that a good dotter is going to be within an exp level of 28b-30b in order to obtain the levels of dmg and sustainability you all are talking about. The bottom line of the argument is, because you feel you aren't blocking, resisting, evading whatevering their dmg you consider them OP in general, when the actual reality of a Dotter is that it takes at least 30b exp to be good.

Now lets throw in Legendary's... well there ya go... like pieces to a puzzle. You're dying to a toon that has to stack dmg, and is only good at it when all their support skills are practically maxed. The problem here isn't the Dots, it isn't the mitigation of the dmg... it's the legends giving base precent bonus... I've soon Arach poop on us and absorb practically all our dots... That's the strength of legendary's.

A couple of solid DD's in a group with a dot absorbing tank and it's a wrap... the heal/over dmg is irrelevant. Think of the secondary classes too... What would compliment them the best... I'm just saying... you're all just looking at the damage they do over yours and consider their mitigation compared to your damage and you think it's ridiculous, instead of looking at the avenues of what you can potentially do. People that spend money and put the time in are going to be good... More time and money better they will be... that's the way with any MMO. Just because there seems to be an OP class atm with all the bonus's and buffs.. doesn't mean someone can, even tomorrow, bring out the wham hammer and destroy that theory entirely.

Leave you with one other thing... I've seen a melee team in arena, destroy a dotter of over 30b exp in the first 2 seconds of the match. All I'm saying...

Cyress · 02-03-2012, 05:29 AM

The term unbalanced, is massivly abused. That would imply that skills/gear/gems are similar in nature in order to make the comparison.

Cyress = 33.4b xp.
R20 Contagion x4
R19 Contagion x4
R18 Contagion x4
R20 Blood Plague x4
R19 Blood Plague x4
R18 Blood Plague x4
R12 Unblemished x4
Reaper x1

Morphed Legendary tier 1 helm.
Morphed Legendary tier 1 arm.
Morphed Legendary tier 1 arm.
Morphed Legendary tier 1 breastplate.
Morphed Legendary tier 3 leg.
Legendary tier 2 leg.

The teams with comparable gear/gems/skills and choose to queue against us, trade wins with us. The teams that do not have comparable gear/gems/skills, lose.

If people spent half the time and energy finding and exploiting our weakness' as they do pointing out our strenghts these threads would not exist. But then again, to find a teams weakness, you have to actualy fight them.

Ripple · 02-03-2012, 05:35 AM

this is lame once you get 1 hit from a decked out 2h melee toon you'll just make threads about them.
Every class can be "OP" just build it by playing not complaining.

Ripple · 02-03-2012, 05:41 AM

P.S. Dots/Whip (pet) are the only builds in the game now that can't 1hit or 1shot farm mobs.

Nurvus · 02-03-2012, 07:18 PM

Tragicallyhip, a man after my own heart.

hotshot64 · 02-03-2012, 07:20 PM

The day I see any meleer 1-hit a decent dot caster, I might actually agree with you. That would require what WOULD be at least a 15k crit though, to kill a dot caster with 7.5k health.

Nurvus · 02-03-2012, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotshot64

The day I see any meleer 1-hit a decent dot caster, I might actually agree with you. That would require what WOULD be at least a 15k crit though, to kill a dot caster with 7.5k health.

You just said DoTers are OP unless they can be 1 shotted by a 2h melee.
Yes, exactly that.
Unless you ignored everything he wrote.

So unless a DoTer (who can't kill anything in the first 10 seconds) can be killed in the first 2 seconds by a 2h melee, you don't agree with what he wrote.

Okay.

If you're referring to Ripple, he said DoT casters and Pet Whippers are the only ones who can't 1-hit farm mobs right now.
Mobs.