Max DPS Calculations

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by Roeth

Oh, while we're at it, ... vengeance and deathblow skills anyone ?


PS. my apologies if some of my calcs are wrong...

it is hard to calculate vengeance and deathblow skills, because you don't know when enemies will be under the needed health, what your health is, etc.

same thing goes for calculating crit and trishot for archers for ambush and 2hers for crits for first hit.

[Thomas Jordan]

Huggles:

You, as a non-bow user, set the tone with your first sentence. "This thread will finally stop archers from bitc...i mean complaining, and give new players an idea of what they have in store for them."

Bow users have tried in the past to put together helpful hints for new players, and they've always gotten hijacked or the authors have been flamed.

Bows have a lot going for them. Despite my joking in clan chat right now about switching to 2H piercing, it's only that, a joke. I know the strengths and weaknesses of bows, and I'm sticking with them.

TJ

[beetdabrat]

Originally Posted by Smashbros

ok im sorry if i got anything wrong here.

im going to work out the max crit, and the max bloodlet for the 2h pierce (using the 99 2h) then someone else can work out the DPS based on that

to make it simple, im going to use my classes, Weapon Master / rogue (bloodlet is higher with rogue/wm though)

base damage: 49 - 244

ok Bloodlet first:

49+5 = 54 (spike rune 5)

54*1.4 = 75.6 (pierce spec) (rounding to 76)

76*3 = 228 (crit)

228*1.25 = 285 (vengence)

285*2 = 570 (deathblow)

570*1.08 = 615.6 (pain run 5) (rounding to 616)

616*1.105 = 680.68 (wm CA/CS at 100) (rounding down to 681)

681*1.2 = 817.2 (rogue SS) (rounding to 817)

That makes a possible bloodlet of 817.

ok now on to max hit, using same classes.

244*3 = 732 (crit)

732*1.25 = 915 (vengence)

915*2 = 1830 (deathblow)

1830*1.08 = 1976.4 (pain rune 5) (round to 1976)

1976*1.105 = 2183.48 (wm CA/CS) (round to 2183)



sooo that makes the true damage for the 99 2h pierce 817 - 2183 when you are a weapon master / rogue.

Its 1634-3000 due to 100% bloodlets, at least for deathblow crits.

Beet Da Brat

[Smashbros]

Originally Posted by beetdabrat

Its 1634-3000 due to 100% bloodlets, at least for deathblow crits.

Beet Da Brat

ahh true, forgot about that lol.

although you would need basically no life left to do that lol

[Conqueror]

@ Huggles.

You can not calculate the dps of a character without making A LOT of assumptions.

For example, once you figure out what the max crit, max non crit, min crit and min non crit values are, where do you go from there. Do you use the average damage non crit and crit value for calculation purposes ? If you use the average of the max and the min hit, you fail to take into effect the upward skew due to int/cnc.

How do you account for vengeful shot ? Do you ASSUME that the opponent is casting dd's constantly at a constant rate. Do you assume that a vengeful crit = average crit and a vengeful non crit = average non crit.

How do you determine miss rate ? [missing lower's dps]. Factors like trained eye, dex epicurious etc etc would all have to be considered here.

What about trishots ? Do you think of it as one big shot that delivers 3 times the average damage. The picture is further complicated because the trishot can include both crit and non crit shots. Not to mention, ambush would have to be treated separately.

Furthermore, you would have to make assumptions about the length of the fight. That is the simplest possible way to account for delay. Another approach is to take (average damage / time ) figures instead of average damage figures. Even if you assume that the delay between shots is uniform, vengeful shot becomes a problem because it is not delay dependent.

If you are fighting a mob, the mob may be wearing runes and those would have to be accounted for as well.

________________

The calculation is nasty and in the end, there is no satisfactory result. You are just bsing because most of your work is based on one assumption or another.



The best way to calculate dps is to take a character and to actually moniter the damage that the character inflicts and the time that the character takes to inflict this damage.







EDIT: Farming times are a good indicator of dps.

You are fighting a mob with a given # of hitpoints repeatedly. Hence the damage inflicted per fight stays about the same. Figure out the time it takes to inflict this damage and compare this number across relatively equally skilled characters that use different weapon types.

Casters have the best farming times and hence they have the highest dps at cap. That should come as no surprise to anyone.

[thatperson]

vengeful shot is a difficult skill to calculate into dps assuming u are fighting mobs they have a constant flow of gems hitting you thus a chance for instant damage at a constant rate but as its just a 25% chance to fire a no delay shot back it would have to be calculated such as the mob is firing 1 shot every 5 seconds you have a 25% chance so every 20 seconds you shoot an immediate shot back with a 35% (random number not sure exact chance and dont feel like doing it atm cause im not actually calculating anything) chance to crit causing 1.5x average damage (yes you use averages for dps calc unless ur looking for true max dps then you assume ur hitting max every shot) so you have an additional shot of dps every 20 seconds so take the average shot/20 to get the dps of the shot and add an additional 52.5% to it for the crit chance dps also note that this requires the knowledge of the rate of fire of said DDs***

he said in the OP that we are assuming white mobs so base miss rate for a normal accuracy weapon is 25% with each level taking away 3% so that at epic accuracy (we are assuming best weapons in game and maxed skills) its a 10% miss rate it fires on seperate checks so trained eye would have to be taken into account as a 90% chance to hit followed by another 15% chance to hit im not entirely sure about assurance but i think it works the same way so an additional 10% chance to hit so 1-(1-.9)*(1-.15)*(1-.1)=7.65% miss rate or hits that do 0 damage this is also assuming dex equal to 1.5*(ML+100)



you take the average dps of the weapon (based on noncrits by delay) and add in the capability to crit (i dont feel like looking up exactly what it is based on skills alone so lets say 35%) if u have a 35% chance to crit to do 150% damage thats a dps increase of 52.5%

trishots are a 10% chance to do 300% damage so to calculate the dps a trishot adds its a flat 30% increase in dps

casters have the highest immediate dps upon entering a fight when they start with a full row of gems casters can unlease deadly blows but they have an ungodly high delay for each gem draw (cant remember what it is off the top of my head but like 3.5s+ minimum) so their big flashy crits take awhile

hope this answers your questions

***note this may be completely wrong but afaik that should be the right way to do the dps from vengeful and it is all assuming you are fighting mobs who are constantly casting DDs when fighting another player the entire skill dps gets really blurry and incredibly difficult to calculate (at least imo)


@ tj i said in most MMOs archers are higher defense due to being able to avoid attacks from range hence why i said if they need a buff of any kind it should be in the defense department

[thatperson]

to start off with note that this is excluding deathblow and vengeance as they only take effect when certain qualifications are met

using rogue/weapon master with 99 2h pierce

49-244 with 37 delay

rogue/ wm gives a 39.1% boost to min and 7% to max so its 68.159-261.08
add in pierce spec 95.4226-261.08
str/dex bonus 95.4226-391.62
spike rune 5 makes it 100.4226-391.62

(100.4226+391.62)/2=246.0363 plus constant bloodlets so 346.4589 average damage
divide that by delay and get 9.36375405 base weapon dps

have a 59.37508 chance to do 200% damage increase (overcrit/crit) makes it a 118.75016% increase in dps or
20.48322696638148 dps

poisonbolt adds a 10% chance to do instant 150 damage or 150 damage every 370 delay so .405 dps increase or
20.88822696638148 dps

a 20% chance to do 100% more damage so a flat 20% increase on dps
25.065872359657776

have a 92.37871% chance to hit which makes the final dps for the 2h piercer
23.1555295360984138834896

if i missed something feel free to point it out

[Thomas Jordan]

Originally Posted by thatperson

@ tj i said in most MMOs archers are higher defense due to being able to avoid attacks from range hence why i said if they need a buff of any kind it should be in the defense department

This isn't most MMOs.

TJ

[Smashbros]

Originally Posted by thatperson

to start off with note that this is excluding deathblow and vengeance as they only take effect when certain qualifications are met

using rogue/weapon master with 99 2h pierce

49-244 with 37 delay

rogue/ wm gives a 39.1% boost to min and 7% to max so its 68.159-261.08
add in pierce spec 95.4226-261.08
str/dex bonus 95.4226-391.62
spike rune 5 makes it 100.4226-391.62

(100.4226+391.62)/2=246.0363 plus constant bloodlets so 346.4589 average damage
divide that by delay and get 9.36375405 base weapon dps

have a 59.37508 chance to do 200% damage increase (overcrit/crit) makes it a 118.75016% increase in dps or
20.48322696638148 dps

poisonbolt adds a 10% chance to do instant 150 damage or 150 damage every 370 delay so .405 dps increase or
20.88822696638148 dps

a 20% chance to do 100% more damage so a flat 20% increase on dps
25.065872359657776

have a 92.37871% chance to hit which makes the final dps for the 2h piercer
23.1555295360984138834896

if i missed something feel free to point it out

yay for 2h pierce STILL being worse then bow users lol

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by thatperson

to start off with note that this is excluding deathblow and vengeance as they only take effect when certain qualifications are met

using rogue/weapon master with 99 2h pierce

49-244 with 37 delay

rogue/ wm gives a 39.1% boost to min and 7% to max so its 68.159-261.08
add in pierce spec 95.4226-261.08
str/dex bonus 95.4226-391.62
spike rune 5 makes it 100.4226-391.62

(100.4226+391.62)/2=246.0363 plus constant bloodlets so 346.4589 average damage
divide that by delay and get 9.36375405 base weapon dps

have a 59.37508 chance to do 200% damage increase (overcrit/crit) makes it a 118.75016% increase in dps or
20.48322696638148 dps

poisonbolt adds a 10% chance to do instant 150 damage or 150 damage every 370 delay so .405 dps increase or
20.88822696638148 dps

a 20% chance to do 100% more damage so a flat 20% increase on dps
25.065872359657776

have a 92.37871% chance to hit which makes the final dps for the 2h piercer
23.1555295360984138834896

if i missed something feel free to point it out

_________________________Min
weapon___________________49
spike rune_________________54
rogue____________________70.2
WM_____________________75.114
Pierce spec______________105.1596
puncture________________135.1596
rune of pain_____________145.972368
hem___________________291.944736
crit____________________643.373669729346
double attack___________772.0484036752153


________________________Max
weapon__________________244
dex/str___________________366
WM_____________________391.62
rune of pain_____________422.9496
crit______________932.0758441849728
double attack______1118.491013021967

average = 945.2697083485913
delay = 37/1.1= 28.10261295090407
Max DPS = 28.10261295090407

compare this to bow DPS of 28.6387447020644, which doesn't include arrowrain.

Crit explained
avg = chance(dmg)+chance(dmg)
avg = .601875784 (3) + .398124216 (1)
avg = 2.203751568


since glitch hasn't told us base accuracy, we can't factor that in. all epic 99s have epic accuracy at level 100 epicurious.

[Conqueror]

I am telling you that these calculations are garbage.

Read what I wrote before. You are making WAY TOO MANY ASSUMPTIONS about how things work.


If archers had a dps of 30 (lets round it up), it would take 160 seconds to kill a mob with 5000 hp's. Mobs at cap have more hp's.

160 seconds = 2.8 minutes

Ask Smash to tell you how many 2.8 minute fights he has had.

I could kill a mob with 5k hitpoints in 30 - 40 seconds if I don't miss [and that is slow; (unfortunately I am an archer)].


It is easy to calculate dps.
Figure out approximately how many hitpoints the mob has.
Then divide the # of hitpoints by how long it takes you to complete the fight in seconds.


Once again, farming times are a very good indicator of dps. Compare the farming times of people who are relatively equally skilled and use different weapon types. Be careful though; people like to boast [ooo yeah I can kill in 1/2 a second; unless you are talking to a caster, it is probably not true; if you are talking to a caster, subtract 10 seconds from whatever he tells you ].

[thatperson]

Originally Posted by Conqueror

I am telling you that these calculations are garbage.

Read what I wrote before. You are making WAY TOO MANY ASSUMPTIONS about how things work.


If archers had a dps of 30 (lets round it up), it would take 160 seconds to kill a mob with 5000 hp's. Mobs at cap have more hp's.

160 seconds = 2.8 minutes

Ask Smash to tell you how many 2.8 minute fights he has had.

I could kill a mob with 5k hitpoints in 30 - 40 seconds if I don't miss [and that is slow; (unfortunately I am an archer)].


It is easy to calculate dps.
Figure out approximately how many hitpoints the mob has.
Then divide the # of hitpoints by how long it takes you to complete the fight in seconds.


Once again, farming times are a very good indicator of dps. Compare the farming times of people who are relatively equally skilled and use different weapon types. Be careful though; people like to boast [ooo yeah I can kill in 1/2 a second; unless you are talking to a caster, it is probably not true].

these are dp delay calculations not dp second

these are all assuming max skills and best weapons so yes we are making assumptions but doesnt change the calculations

[Conqueror]

Ok. I did not realize that you were talking about dpd instead of dps. But my point still stands.

You are assuming the order in which the various variables are applied. Runes, for example, should be applied at the very end.

You also can not use the average damage figure for your calculations due to the skew effect.

There are various other things in your calculations that I could nit pick about too.


EDIT:

If you want to calculate dps, determine a mob's hitpoints and time your fights. Then divide the damage by the delay to get your dps.

[StormGuardian]

TBH I don't wanna get into this so I'm just gonna say what I have to say and then keep laughing at this entire thread.

I actually agree w/Conqueror atm, there are a bunch of "extra" things you have to take into consideration that aren't being added in here. A few of your calculations are off as well, do to skew of damage(which is NOT linear btw) based off int/cnc or str or dex etc. Accuracy is another story, sure Luk, all of them having epic accuracy puts the *actual* accuracies extremely close together...but they are not the same! Different weapons are able to skew damage and accuracy slightly further than other weapon types, and so you CANNOT assume that they're all the same. I've been working for months(here and there anyway) working on spreadsheets that take into consideration EVERYTHING that affects damage...I'm still no where close...but am getting there(I like to think so anyway ;O)

The other thing you have to realize. Is that DPS is NOT the entire story. A lot of the balance comes into play from the defensive stand point. How much damage you take and how much you can mitigate via parry/kite/resist/block/etc is a huge part of balance. I'll say this again once, and hopefully some of you will realize why it's the case instead of *****ing about it:

Every class WILL NOT have the same DPS. If you want every class/weap type to have the same farming speed, then skills/weapons WILL BE THE EXACT SAME. There will be NO variation, and the game will merge into a bunch of hapless players all doing the exact same mind numbing farming routine, with the exact same kill speed, and the exact same skills. Duels will be boring as hell, and the game will turn to that pile of poo that Glitch mentioned during story time. PvE balance will ALWAYS be off, but Glitchless is doing the best they can to, wait for it, KEEP PvE FARMING SPEED AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE WHILE STILL KEEPING PvP BALANCED. Will it be perfect? Of course not, nothing is perfect. Will it be adequate? As much as can be, yes. They can't just throw in stuff everytime someone complains. It has to be tried and tested to make sure it doesn't throw off PvP or other things more so than it fixes them. DEAL WITH IT.

Now, that being said, YES I am all for as much balance as possible. YES it is obvious that some classes/weap types farm faster than others. It was YOUR choice in what you picked to begin with...some classes are obviously more offensive or more defensive than others. YOU made that choice and YOU always have the chance to reroll if you want. With boon now, as much as I hate it, it makes it MUCH easier to rebuild. What you do is up to you, be happy with it, and be happy the game exists, and trust Glitchless to do the best they can with it.

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by Conqueror

I am telling you that these calculations are garbage.

Read what I wrote before. You are making WAY TOO MANY ASSUMPTIONS about how things work.


If archers had a dps of 30 (lets round it up), it would take 160 seconds to kill a mob with 5000 hp's. Mobs at cap have more hp's.

160 seconds = 2.8 minutes

Ask Smash to tell you how many 2.8 minute fights he has had.

I could kill a mob with 5k hitpoints in 30 - 40 seconds if I don't miss [and that is slow; (unfortunately I am an archer)].


It is easy to calculate dps.
Figure out approximately how many hitpoints the mob has.
Then divide the # of hitpoints by how long it takes you to complete the fight in seconds.


Once again, farming times are a very good indicator of dps. Compare the farming times of people who are relatively equally skilled and use different weapon types. Be careful though; people like to boast [ooo yeah I can kill in 1/2 a second; unless you are talking to a caster, it is probably not true; if you are talking to a caster, subtract 10 seconds from whatever he tells you ].

this shows the average hit, not taking into account certain uncalculatable skills or the curve toward max hit

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by StormGuardian

The other thing you have to realize. Is that DPS is NOT the entire story. A lot of the balance comes into play from the defensive stand point. How much damage you take and how much you can mitigate via parry/kite/resist/block/etc is a huge part of balance. I'll say this again once, and hopefully some of you will realize why it's the case instead of *****ing about it:

you can't parry an arrow, but you can kite a slasher, crusher, or piercer. end story.

yes i realise i am missing a ton of stuff, but i'm going only from what i know for sure because of glitchless. I know the damage isn't linear, but i don't have formulas.

[Conqueror]

Originally Posted by Huggles

you can't parry an arrow, but you can kite a slasher, crusher, or piercer. end story.

yes i realise i am missing a ton of stuff, but i'm going only from what i know for sure because of glitchless. I know the damage isn't linear, but i don't have formulas.

Like I mentioned in the other thread, the only thing that a melee has to do in order to beat an archer is to lvl up a couple of skills and to equip a shield. Shields can deflect ranged damage.

Archers are relatively helpless against a good shield user. The only possible way to counter a shield is to have really good bm skills. That might work perhaps.

The melee toon always has a greater defensive potential in the end. Archers lose out on both fronts (the dps and the defensive front). It is just the way it is. I am not whining and I am not asking for a buff [Buffs never work out how I want them to and I don't want them anymore]. I am stating facts.

I would appreciate it if exploit weakness was looked into. At least allow what archers have currently to work properly.

[Thomas Jordan]

Originally Posted by Huggles

FINISHED (Besides Pets. checking to see if Paladin gets bonus to Rabid.)
[FONT="Lucida Console"]Let's get started!

Equipment: (this is just the best equipment for bow users based on stat bonuses and damage, in my opinion)
Bow of the Soulthief
Nightkeeper's Talon
Quiver of Elder Dragons
Legging of the Remorseless (x2)
Sleeve of the Demented Retributer (x2)
Deathkisser's Chestguard
Deathkisser's Helmet
Spear of Hardened Death

Classes:
Primary: Archer-15% bonus to max ranged damage
Secondary: Paladin-16% bonus to beneficial aura effects (This is better than 16% to min ranged that a ranger would get because of Broadhead Aura and Range Haste Aura.)

So, here we go!

__________________________Min Damage-------------Max Damage
Bow____________________________13_________________ 104
Arrow___________________________10________________ _154
Total____________________________23_______________ __258
Archer___________________________23_______________ _296.7
Broadhead (with Paladin )x1.1x1.16__29.348____________378.5892
Max Cnc/Int x1.5________________ 29.348____________567.8838
Trishot x 1.2___________________35.2176____________681.46056
Crit x1.25496327792_____44.19679473647539____855.207978 1507988
Broadhead +29.41883976_73.61563449647539____884.626817910798 8


So then average bow damage is 479.1212262036371.

Delay:

Starting Delay- 34
Quiver- /1.41 = 24.11347517730496
Range haste aura /(1.1 x 1.16) = 18.89770781920451
Swiftarrow Rune/ 1.1 = 17.17973438109501

So, the average delay then is 17.17973438109501.

Average damage/delay = 479.1212262036371/17.17973438109501 = 27.8887447020644

So archer without pets has a DPS of 27.8887447020644? Nope!

What about Flameshot and Poison Arrow?
Flameshot has a 50% chance of adding 1 DPS. So that's an average of .5 DPS extra.
Poison arrow has a 25% chance of adding 1 DPS, so that's .25 extra.

27.8887447020644 + .5 + .25 = 28.6387447020644

Now then, on to accuracy.

At level 100 Epicurious, the bow will have Epic accuracy, same as all 99 epic weapons. So let's call that even.

Precision gives melee a 10% bonus chance to hit. Trained Eye gives bows 15% bonus chance.

Also, arrows cannot be parried. That is all.

With maxed skills, and the best build, bow DPS will be 28.6387447020644. If any archer dares post melee DPS, please, I beg you- entertain us.

Ok, so you proved pigs can fly if given large enough ears and turbo powered rotary tails.

Trishot probability is 10%, not 20%. I'm not sure what you did with broadhead. Correcting your math up to broadhead I come up with 783.94. Critical damage also looks strange, but I used your value.

Add in flameshot and poison arrow = 784.69.

Broadhead is 17.5% X 150 / 120 = 0.218 OR with the aura (which you're presuming) 26.5. So the the best case answer would be 811.19 for maximum damage. I don't feel like correcting your math for minimum damage, but the same errors exist. So using your minimum damage and delay, I come up with 25.75. Still respectable, but the pig isn't looking quite as good.

Rather than carefully choosing classes and weapons and attempting to demonstrate the maximum theoretically possible damage for a selected bow and a selected 2H piercer, life would have been easier if you'd just used the figures provided by real players with real skills and real equipment. This is about the same magnitude of difference that currently exists between Smash and Conqueror. Correcting for your math errors, you just proved Smash will probably beat Conqueror in a duel (but we already knew that).

TJ

[Raith]

The math may demonstrate average dpd, but this is different from functional dpd. Plus, reducing all damage to a round-by-round average misrepresents the damage output of weapons.

For instance, an archer ambush will push bow output higher in round 1, then it will drop to a lower number, then (assuming Exploit gets fixed) it will rise round by round until round 25 at which it hits it's max average damage output. DW begins at a lower number, gets a venge bonus based on an unassumable variable, and another bonus from Deathblow which is a major bonus but impossible to add into 'average damage output.' 2H will spike at the beginning, drop a bit for average, then get Venge and DB bonus over time. When these variables kick in is not possible to include in these 'average dpd' numbers, but significant in terms of functional damage output. In other words, the limits of your assumptions will misrepresent the results.

A comparison of build against another build is far more than base dpd. A PvP battle is about Weapon Dpd + Pet dpd + ability to avoid damage + ability to regain health + total hp vs. your opponent. Base weapon dpd hardly sums up this comparison. If you doubt this, just look at Whip dpd vs. Whip PvP power.

This also neglects stat influence on damage output. You assume that all weapons can get equal effectiveness from stat distribution (bad assumption) as well as assume that any given build can aquire max damage stat bonus + max accuracy stat bonus + max hp stat dist. + equal damage avoidance stat dist. This is a retarded assumption.

All this does not mean that base dpd is a totally worthless goal to calculate, it just means that the resulting numbers mean little to nothing in terms of comparing builds.

[Thomas Jordan]

Nicely put Raith.

Along those lines, what stats are important to the 99 2H epic user? Since we're using Smash as our example, a lot of dex, and a bit of strength. No PST, INT, CNC, or MST. A bit of AGI, nice CNT, and a lot of DUR (645). Now let's look at a bow fighter (me). A goodly amount of DEX, INT & CNC. A decent amount of PST & MST so I can use those R5 archery auras you think are so lovely that consume a combined 100 PST & MST every 5 seconds. A nice bit of AGI so I can kite, and decent CNT. That doesn't leave much left over for DUR (329). Smash has told me he has around 15,000 hit points. I have around 8,500. Even if our weapons do equal damage (which they don't), who is going to win that one? (The hitpoint totals do include tempers).

Oh, I know, I'll drop my PST & MST and increase my DUR and therefore my hit points. Ok, take out the R5 archery auras, because I'll be out of PST & MST very quickly into the fight. There went the 1.10 & 1.16 multiplier for the broadhead aura's contribution to damage that you included, and all of it's contribution to broadhead bloodlet damage. There went the nice increased speed from the range haste aura. So I now have more hit points and kill even slower. Hmm, interesting trade off.

Huggles, I really do commend you for what you are trying to do, but your presuming we all just picked up a bow yesterday and haven't already worked these things out for ourselves. I've been fighting with a bow exclusively for the past 14 months. I know how to squeeze every advantage I can from my pets, and don't hesitate to use a whip (or two) when the situation calls for it. I even carry an epic shield, and will don that at the right time(s). Sometimes a bow and a shield - now talk about slow, but it can be the right thing to do. Most of us even use some offensive magic, but that cuts into our PST & MST for those archery auras (the broadhead is great - the range haste much less so). And maintaining the PST & MST for offensive magic is another limiter on how much DUR we can have. Some bow users have even gone as far as trading DUR for increased MRE & PRE for offensive magic and the archery auras.

So please, would a level 41 dual slasher please stop being condescending and trying to teach us how to suck eggs? Grab yourself a bow, fight exclusively with it for a year, and then come back and tell us all how wrong we have been.

Thank you.

TJ