Promised No Hijacked Threads

[RogueTigeR]

*I have bolded the premise in order for speeds sake

My Original Statement In Question:

Originally Posted by RogueTigeR

I understand where you're coming from.... i just dont think it's fair for casters/meleers for this reason:

2 lv 20 toons:

1 a melee user.. has 28 slashing and uses zombie claw.. has 25 suiting and has entire 25 suiting set... has 13 archery and has 13 quiver and bow... lv 4 arrow... seems reasonable...

2 a ranged user... has 25 archery and uses entire 25 set.. has 25 suiting and has entire 25 set... also uses lv 9 piercer for 2nd hit + enchants

the ranged user obviously is at an advantage here if bow sets are included in this full set bonus and weaponry is not....for i just spelled out a very reasonable scenario where a ranged user would be given a bonus just b/c his chosen weapon type that he concentrates the majority of his xp into comes in multiple pieces....

Bitching I Recieved Back:

Originally Posted by Raith

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA like that's true about a single thing in Nod.

Here he is referring to Ranged users being at an advantage. You can tell he is being sarcastic and is more than skeptical.


What I Thought to be a Fairly Concrete and Overkill (more than enough examples... i WILLLLLL add more if you dare me) Response to Bitching:

Originally Posted by RogueTigeR

im just saying in the scenario i spelled out.. and just to keep the record staight:
btw.. mostly comparing range and melee.. not caster

• hitting multiple enemies at once
• haste aura
• is there anything more detrimental to a caster than blind?
• compared to melee... besides whippers... who gets an entire pg of skillz to improve them?
• the choice of 2 lv 20 skillz to improve dps with an additional skill at lv 60 to make BOTH available... i know as a piercer i would love a skill that not only improved min but ALSO max dmg
• versatility: bow not enough? put on a shield.. put on a whip... put on BOTH!! and your still not a whipper or a blocker.. ur main weap is still a bow!
• epic upgrades ~ every 10 lvs
  
• your primary stats for your ranged dmg also COINCIDENTALLY are prime stats to make you one hell of a caster hybrid... trust me... I am a piercer/DoT user.. if Dex effected my DoTs.. i would crit my pants
• shall i really go on????

Is ranged weaponry perfect? far from it....
Does it have some problems? ofc.. what weapon type doesnt

BUT I really am tired of every damn thread being taken over by ranged users constantly constantly bitching...and GLITCHLESS is giving you gold... buff after buff after buff.. and still complaining.. maybe try some of this new stuff out b4 hijacking another thread:
Recent Buffs:

1. BUFF It Takes 2: 1-9-2011: can u mirror arrows? yes. if i am reading skill correctly.. can you parry arrows? no
2. BUFF/DEBUFF Reroller's Boon:11-29-2010:arrow rain no longer breaks mes (or) loss of dmg on mes'd targets
3. BUFF Now Live:11-13-2010: Broadhead AND Ranged Haste Auras.. need i explain?

try out your new toys.... I am a piercer.. a PIERCER!!.. you all complain more than I do.. ROFL

/end rant


Edit: sry for hijacking thread. ... I just blew a fuse

And Now, Response I Got In Return, I Being Obviously Less Than Thrilled:

Originally Posted by Raith

Inspect me in-game. You won't see a bow. Just a little FYI.

And I'm not interested in complaining about bows, and your points are pretty much meaningless to the point. At cap, bows do not have advantages over other class in any noticable aspect of Nod. This is just true. Plus, everyone except casters can/does equip bows. So the "this favors bows" is silly. That's my point.

I went ahead and changed all the 'NON ADVANTAGES' bows do infact use at cap in the post to red, scroll back find. The ONLY thing i really said that doesnt effect capped users is the fact that ranged users get epic upgrades ~ every 10 lvs or so...EVERYTHING else is enhanced/opens up at cap as skills are available and levels in said skillz raise.


well, true statement.BUT, even thou all of us at cap would like to think we're the only ones that matter, there are still level1-80 to think about. If they did not matter at all, skillz would close just as they open w/ level. I do not stop being a lv 5,15,40, or 60 at cap... I am all of them. We are not progressing through levels, were building levels. does that make sense to you?


and btw...wat is your ingame name? I do read, and did try to inspect you, but 'player name raith does not exist'.

[thatperson]

i assume raith=raithofhel in game

[Raith]

I'm Raithofhel in-game, and you'll either see a 88 suit with 69 staff (DD suit) or an 84 suit with 78 staff (HoT suit). Or you can see my alt if you want, Raithofhell (extra L), who is a crusher.

Let me point a few things out to you here, Rogue.

1) You believe me to be bitchin', so you start a thread bitching about it.... O_o I think, like you said, you are blowing a fuse because you think I'm doing something I'm not.

2) While my first comment/point was made in a trollish way, both my comments are entirely on topic to the convo. We are talking about suit bonuses. Someone suggests including bowsets into "full suits." You say that would be an advantage to bow users. I say that's like objecting to an incidental Blue DD buff. My point here is entirely relevant to the "should we include bows in the 'full suit' category." I already said I'm not interested in whining about bows. Nor am I interested in turning Dest's typical "I did something I thought was hard so buff it 10x pl0x" thread off topic.

3) The number of recent buffs to archers does not equal an evaluation of their success, and is irrelevant to whether bows should be included in "full suits." If we want to talk about archer buffs, then the convo should be simple. F&I came out and ppl wanted to try whips. Incant runes and epic gems came out, and ppl wanted to try caster. Recent 2H dmg buff, and ppl wanted to try 2H. When was the last archer buff that made ppl want to try archery? Lists of buffs and such don't change this, and none of it (my comments or yours about bow buffs) has anything to do with whether bows should be included in "full suits."

4) if I wanted to get into a back and forth about bows, I could add a million points too. DARE ME... PL0X!! ;P I didn't because a) this would be off topic to the thread, b) I don't use them atm, and c) I'm sick and tired of convos about bows that never get anywhere. I'm pretty sure we both agree on this.

To sum it up... I dun think what happened is quite what you think happened, mate.

[RogueTigeR]

okies...fair enough....like i said.. i just HATE bow users taking a thread and turning it into a buff bow users thread b/c bows sux soooo much... end of convo

[Conqueror]

the ranged user obviously is at an advantage here if bow sets are included in this full set bonus and weaponry is not....for i just spelled out a very reasonable scenario where a ranged user would be given a bonus just b/c his chosen weapon type that he concentrates the majority of his xp into comes in multiple pieces....

In essence, considering archery gear as part of the complete set would restrict the choices that bow users have available to them. Many bow users like to mix and match different sets. For example, it is a common practice to use the 88 bow and arrow with the 78 quiver.

And then again, why should archery gear be considered part of a complete set, when melee gear is not being considered in the same manner.

haste aura

The 88 archery set is the fastest archery set in the game.

1/1.36 * 34 = 25 is the delay of the 88 archery set.

The 81 slashers are faster and do more damage.
The 84 2 handed piercer is faster and also does more damage now.
The 89 crushers are faster and do more damage.

The only thing that ranged weapons have that melee weapons do not have is a ranged haste aura.

1/1.36 * 1/1.1 = 22.72 with a rank 5 ranged haste aura.

Archers that do use a ranged haste aura, generally use a rank 2 or a rank 3.

In essence, the melee weapons are still faster with an 85 in dual wield.

Quicksteel and Swiftarrow balance each other out.

is there anything more detrimental to a caster than blind?

Casters can still cast when they are blinded. The blind skill is more of an anti-melee skill. I suggest that you look at the description of the skill to clarify any misconceptions that you might have.

compared to melee... besides whippers... who gets an entire pg of skillz to improve them?

Once again, this is faulty reasoning.

The variable that you need to consider is the total # of skills that are available. Many skills that are melee specific are also located under the protection tab. Several melee specific skills are located under the magic tabs (revitalize, gravebound etc).

If the total # of skills that are melee specific are compared to the total # of skills that are ranged specific, the # is relatively even in the favor of melee fighters.

the choice of 2 lv 20 skillz to improve dps with an additional skill at lv 60 to make BOTH available... i know as a piercer i would love a skill that not only improved min but ALSO max dmg
versatility:

The dot skills provide limited dps at best. Specifically the two that you are referring to. It is possible to squeeze out some dps from the broadhead skill by utilizing the broadhead aura. If I were you, I would have mentioned that instead.

bow not enough? put on a shield.. put on a whip... put on BOTH!! and your still not a whipper or a blocker.. ur main weap is still a bow!

Telling an archer to put on a whip or a shield is like telling a slasher to put on a whip or a shield. The slasher is still using a slashing weapon after all.

Whips and shields should be extra. A bow should always be more than enough for a bow user. Archery is the bow user's calling; his profession; his area of expertise.

epic upgrades ~ every 10 lvs

Contemporary melee weapons always have a higher weapon dpd than contemporary archery weapons. Compare the 58 archery set with the 59 crushers for example. When this fact was brought to the attention of Glitchless, he/she responded by saying that the weapon's dpd is not so important. What is important is the entire package (skills + weapon dpd). I have all of my skills at pretty decent levels.

But I will let you have this one. There do seem to be more archery sets than any other weapon types in the game (There is an archery set for every suit of armor). Maybe Glitchless really thought of archery as part of the complete suit when he was developing the game.

your primary stats for your ranged dmg also COINCIDENTALLY are prime stats to make you one hell of a caster hybrid... trust me... I am a piercer/DoT user.. if Dex effected my DoTs.. i would crit my pants
shall i really go on????

Two things:

(1) I cast as an archer. The dps gain is limited at best since I can not afford to raise my mana and energy significantly and gem draws are very slow.

(2) I am a bow user. I should not have to cast at all. If I am casting, I might as well redistribute and go full caster. I can utilize double cast and all of the staff bonuses in this way. Kill speed is WAY better. I am better all around as a caster than as an archer (pvp, pve etc).

try out your new toys.... I am a piercer.. a PIERCER!!.. you all complain more than I do.. ROFL

To the contrary. After ages of neglect and buff after buff for every other type of weaponry class, you will see a few archers complaining every now and then in isolated threads. I know of many who rerolled, quit, redistributed etc etc without saying a word.

When you guys received this recent 2 handed buff, there was not one archer that complained. Not one. I saw casters complaining even though their damage was buffed.

Remember, archers were the class that put up the big red #'s throughout this games history. Now 1 handers seem to hit harder than archers can.





You are still the QUEEN OF BUFF ME PLOX LAND. No one can take that title away from you. A good half of the threads on these forums concern you and your desire for a buff.

[Jadakris]

Isn't Runews a pretty good archer? >_> To be a good archer, you clearly need either whip/shield.. or dual whips.. simply how the game is laid out atm..

And to be honest, there is something wrong with archery.. I don't know why but I was using a 78 quiver/arrow with a 58 bow, and I went and got the 78 bow and my ranger start hitting worse than he was with the 58 bow.. Quit confusing IMO but he's a little weakling anyhow as of yet, doesn't even have over 3 bil EXP.. I just noticed a large amount of missing and less crits with the 78 than the 58.. dispite the lowered dmg of the 58 with the 78 arrow..

[RogueTigeR]

This was what I was afraid of....but o well...

blind as a melee detriment... was kinda a after thought.... i run a capped caster...Yes i can click 20 different spots and get lucky w / a cast when blinded... but it is the biggest bitch, i would wrather be stunnd for that amount of time and not be able to lucky cast... at least i would know whats going on.

put it this way... for piercers / slashers... if there was a skill to use both slice AND puncture...we would rejoice... ANY + dps helps...

maybe the shield and whip are an important feature to me b/c i am a 2h'er.... does anyone want to epic farm w/ 2hers?.. does anyone want to go boss questing w/ 2hes?... well.. the verdict is still out on that w/ recent buff... but in the past... do i DPS like a caster? no
can i equip a whip and/or shield? no... if i cant hit hard, and cannot take a hit/tank...what use am i?... well... ranged users lose some dps.. but can fill the role of the tanker...atleast its nice to have that choice.

cant afford to raise mana/energy?... if say 1/4 your dps comes from casts... i say u can afford it. i haz 285 en/457 mana... not bad not good...well... good for a meleer.... i could cast a few times... put in some bursts.. some balances.. and just make it work...



I do know that i haz a lot of 'buff me plz' threads.. but i also have made numerous numersous suggestions that either do not concern me or would buff someone else to the point where it nerfs me....

I am recently returned from a 3 month break from Nod so am not entirely sure where/how many of these bow user threads still exist/how often they appear... I just know, before i left they were everywhere and in every thread be it titled 'problem w/ BM's' , 'Enchanter Buff' or 'bow users need help'.... I just saw a comment and reacted...

[Huggles]

If you want to complain, get equal exp caster and meleer, fight 1v1, 3v3, 2v2, etc.

3 bow users will always beat 3 meleers. why?

meleers can't parry an arrow: defenses left- none
meleers can only hit one enemy at a time: bow users can hit 3
meleers can't blind enemies: bow users can
meleers don't have gems that can increase haste and damage: bow users do
meleers have weapons that heal them every time they swing: bow users do
meleers don't have weapons that add bonus damage every time they hit: bow users do
flame shot
poison arrow
snake tongue
vengeful shot (which can cause arrowrain, flame shot, poison, snake, without any delay added)
broadhead 50% chance for 150 damage- slasher bleed 35% chance for 60, piercer 10% chance for 120 instant.

now archers, if you're too lazy to do this thing called BUYING TROPHIES and then do this thing called USING TROPHIES then please, go play pong. (though you'll complain the ball has an unfair advantage)

Originally Posted by Huggles

If you want to complain, get equal exp caster and meleer, fight 1v1, 3v3, 2v2, etc.

3 bow users will always beat 3 meleers. why?

meleers can't parry an arrow: defenses left- none
meleers can only hit one enemy at a time: bow users can hit 3
meleers can't blind enemies: bow users can
meleers don't have gems that can increase haste and damage: bow users do
meleers have weapons that heal them every time they swing: bow users do
meleers don't have weapons that add bonus damage every time they hit: bow users do
flame shot
poison arrow
snake tongue
vengeful shot (which can cause arrowrain, flame shot, poison, snake, without any delay added)
broadhead 50% chance for 150 damage- slasher bleed 35% chance for 60, piercer 10% chance for 120 instant.

now archers, if you're too lazy to do this thing called BUYING TROPHIES and then do this thing called USING TROPHIES then please, go play pong. (though you'll complain the ball has an unfair advantage)

rolls to acrher /win

[Raith]

Originally Posted by Huggles

3 bow users will always beat 3 meleers.

for what it's worth, this is exactly false.

[Smashbros]

Originally Posted by Raith

for what it's worth, this is exactly false.

have you got 3 of each equally skilled melee and archers??

whats that?? you dont??? :O theres a shock NOW STFU

[Raith]

Do I personally own 6 chars, 3 archers and 3 melee with exactly identical skills? Of course not. Actually neither do you. So if this means I don't know **** about 3v3, then you can join the club.

If you mean have I tested 1v1 archer vs. equally skilled melee, and also tested 3 archers vs. 3 melee with skills within 5 of each other? Yes I have. Actually, with slashers, crushers, and whips. Archery lost every time I tested it.

But again, I doubt you have done even this, or any testing at all. So really what you are saying is that I don't know anything so that you can be right. This is 3rd-grade level arguments. Saying bows are currently at the bottom of the PvP chain only above DW pierce is simply a fact. Saying bows are about as good in PvE as DW pierce is in PvP is also a fact. Whether you like this is irrelevant. I think you should stop taking that 2H piercer into the bathroom, because you repeatedly demonstrate that you troll without any knowledge whatsoever when it comes to bows.

[Raith]

Originally Posted by Raith

I'm sick and tired of convos about bows that never get anywhere.

See Rogue, this is why I say this. This is the way everything that even touches the archery topic goes. Convo starts. One of about 4 ppl post 3-page reasons why archery is not good. Some idiot trolls just because with a "OMG - insert idiot comment - STFU!!" and the thread dies. Most archers have just rerolled or quit.

[Smashbros]

Originally Posted by Raith

Do I personally own 6 chars, 3 archers and 3 melee with exactly identical skills? Of course not. Actually neither do you. So if this means I don't know **** about 3v3, then you can join the club.

no i dont, and no thats not what i meant, the comment was 3 v 3 archers v melee all equally skilled. you said that even then archers will lose, since you havent tested it you dont know that. you can assume, but assuming makes an ass out of you. i havent tested it either, but im not the 1 that made a comment about who would win.

If you mean have I tested 1v1 archer vs. equally skilled melee, and also tested 3 archers vs. 3 melee with skills within 5 of each other? Yes I have. Actually, with slashers, crushers, and whips. Archery lost every time I tested it.

i highly doubt that they were equally skilled. what i mean by equally skilled is, say you and me for instance, we both get all our weaponry for me, archery for you to the same lvl, say 89, and then we get all our def skills to 89. and then we get to the same hp. and then we fight. within 5 of each other isnt exact and therefore can provide skewed results.

But again, I doubt you have done even this, or any testing at all. So really what you are saying is that I don't know anything so that you can be right. This is 3rd-grade level arguments. Saying bows are currently at the bottom of the PvP chain only above DW pierce is simply a fact. Saying bows are about as good in PvE as DW pierce is in PvP is also a fact. Whether you like this is irrelevant. I think you should stop taking that 2H piercer into the bathroom, because you repeatedly demonstrate that you troll without any knowledge whatsoever when it comes to bows.

the fact that you turn this into a personal attack, cause i told you to STFU with your obvious troll post, shows that i hit a nerve. the fact that you get so defensive about it all shows you have something to hide with it all.

all in all, you have no ****ing clue wtf your on about. ive said it multiple times again.

you wanna show that archers are UP, then ****ING PROVE IT. dont sit there and cry about it. provide evidence about it all. much like 2hs did before the recent buff.

crying just for crying's sakes is ****ing retarded and shows that your just another little bitch that wants everything handed to em so they dont have to work to make their toon better,

[RogueTigeR]

Dear Raith... Do not take this as a buff me or feel sorry for me but:

I am a piercer....EVERYONE knows piercers are the bottom of the bottom
I am a 2Her..... Even b4 the recent revamp the 2Hers I was known as a very successful adversary.
I am a Rogue....Everyone knows in Nod max dmg out weighs min dmg... and this is the class that has it's bonus in MIN DMG! Glitchless knew as a melee build the rogue was lacking, and when CA's came out, he claimed the CA to balance the rogue class w/ other melee classes; well.. as it turns out.. the rogue's CA is probably a 6.5/10 (in relation to other classes CA's).

I am not bitching, I am not sorry for any of my choices, I have never rerolled... you know what I did... I put my head against the brick wall... and kept busting my way through...

Pre 2Her patch... I will not say I was the best toon... but I was very very very competetive, even w/ all these 'drawbacks' .... So if bow users feel the same way... my advice, do not reroll.... BUST YOUR WAY THROUGH!

[Conqueror]

Originally Posted by Huggles

3 bow users will always beat 3 meleers. why?

meleers can't parry an arrow: defenses left- none
meleers can only hit one enemy at a time: bow users can hit 3
meleers can't blind enemies: bow users can
meleers don't have gems that can increase haste and damage: bow users do
meleers have weapons that heal them every time they swing: bow users do
meleers don't have weapons that add bonus damage every time they hit: bow users do
flame shot
poison arrow
snake tongue
vengeful shot (which can cause arrowrain, flame shot, poison, snake, without any delay added)
broadhead 50% chance for 150 damage- slasher bleed 35% chance for 60, piercer 10% chance for 120 instant.

No.

3 meleers will always beat 3 bow users. Why ?

Shield.

[hotshot64]

Originally Posted by Conqueror

No.

3 meleers will always beat 3 bow users. Why ?

Shield.

Bull**** my friend. A shield user has to train not only a **** ton of shield skills, but the appropriate weaponry skills as well, to be competent. If we're talking about a bow user vs a melee user, we're not talking about a bow user vs a tank. And you can't just throw on a shield and automatically be a tank, you need skills.

[Conqueror]

As an archer, I have all of the relevant shield skills at my level or higher.

Hence, I expect every melee to have the relevant shield skills as well. If they do not, they need to stop bitchin and start farming.

An archer has no chance against a good shield user.

[hotshot64]

Originally Posted by Conqueror

As an archer, I have all of the relevant shield skills at my level or higher.

Hence, I expect every melee to have the relevant shield skills as well. If they do not, they need to stop bitchin and start farming.

An archer has no chance against a good shield user.

Against a good shield user. And even then it depends on deflects and poisons, etc. But being a meleer and being a shield user are two different things. You get a 22% reduction to your firing speed when you put on a shield. A meleer loses half his dps when he puts on a shield. No point unless you want to be a tank.

[Conqueror]

Originally Posted by hotshot64

Against a good shield user. And even then it depends on deflects and poisons, etc. But being a meleer and being a shield user are two different things. You get a 22% reduction to your firing speed when you put on a shield. A meleer loses half his dps when he puts on a shield. No point unless you want to be a tank.

Being a meleer and being a shield user are not two different things.

You can not draw arbitrary lines for your own convenience.

If I have to increase my shield, gem and bm skills as an archer, I expect nothing different from a comparative melee toon.

Your second premise is also completely wrong. A meleer does not lose half his dps when he puts on a shield. I suggest that you take a look at the bash and the improved bash skills.

Try again.