Alter 2h'ers so people actually will use 2handed weapons!

[Destruction]

Okay, I've been pvping peeps 1v1 and also in arena 3v3, and it is starting to irritate me that 2h'ers seem to be totally useless in both areas of pvp (as well as pve):

I have spoken with the following TOP 2h users:

Glenbek: He uses a 99 Epic 2h'er Slasher. His kills are about 1 min-2min on normal, yellow-orange mobs. His skills are in the 80s.

Comparison: My kills with hero mode using 2 whips (so pets for dps) is faster or equal to his kills. Seriously? Whips are one of the lowest dps units out there, and 2h'ers are supposed to be top-of-the-top dps. This is extremely wrong.

In pvp: The damage that glen does is not noticeable as compared to opponents who use DW'ing. This makes no sense. Why are people using 2 weapons more scary than someone using a giant slash/axe/piercer? 2h'ers can't use shields, so that already is enough of a sacrifice. Must they give up the only thing they have (DPS)?



Roguetiger: He uses an Epic 84 2h'er Piercer. His skills are in the high 80s-low 90s. Out of the 3 people discussed here, he has been the one to have dealt the most considerable damage.

In pve: He kills under a min or so yellow-orange creatures. Normal, non-hero mobs. This, again, is the speed of whips for me in normal mode. Whips are relatively slow killing units (I use rabid r5 to speed it up), and the fact that they are equaling 2h'ers make no sense again.

In pvp: Solo, he is fairly even against people using Dw'ing; however, it's disappointing that a 2h'er doesn't have "outstanding" dps. In 3v3, his damage is not noticeable. Again, 3v3 pvp seems to ignore the dps of 2h'ers due to the abilities of others to avoid/block the damage from a 2h'er either via procs (to slow down the user) or with shields).

Finally: Smashbros: Same wep as rogue, skills in top 80s. Normal kills, yellow-orange, under a minute. Comparable to whips' dps. Nothing special.

In pvp: Not noticeable dps. Only thing that I see is "mirrors" which do insignificant damage to the team.


In conclusion: The current 2h'er system is fantastic, but it neglects 2 important aspects:

---2h'ers can and will miss. When they miss, their dps is dead. Dw'ers have 2 weapons, so when one misses, the other one still has a chance of hitting, at a reduced speed (from Duel Weidling skill). This is exactly the same situation as was with the Weapon Master ability. In theory the ability was fine, but due to the ability of the foe to create a proc to halt the user of the ability or due to the fact that the user misses, the ability of the user is totally useless. This was fixed by giving WM's a perma-damage rate with each use of their ability. A smart solution would take into account that 2h'ers miss.

--2h'ers are a mixed between dps and defense (mirror) at the moment. Pick one! Don't let it just stay somewhere in between. Whips+pets are clearly extremely defensive tactics due to their ability to both heal and deal out significant damage. Shields users are defensive, whereas, loosing the shield and picking up another weapon to DW will increase the offense at the price of decreasing the defense. 2h'ers are stuck in the middle. There needs to be a clear definition of what separates 2h'ers from Dw'ers.





---2h'ers


Closing comment: Original nobody used whips. Only a few people did, who truly were beastmasters. Then came Fire and Ice. Now half of the Nod's population uses whips. If one simple update can transform a totally neglected build into something worth using, please consider doing it for 2h'ers. I am not a 2h'er user, obviously, but it makes me feel pity when I see Epic and 99 2h'ers being neglected. That is all I ask.

Any and all people are invited to post here, especially the three individuals I mentioned throughout the post. Thanks.

[Destruction]

Possible Solutions:

---Clone "Stalking" for 2h'ers: Every point in this skill increases your damage from a 2h'er weapon by X %, but decreases the speed of the weapon by Y %, up to level 100, where the speed will be decreased by 3 times, but the damage will be increased by 10x, where the likelihood that a hit is a maximal hit is 100% if the hit is a crit.

This way, you might miss, but if you hit and crit, you might hit something like 5,000, etc. Edit it for minimal damage for piercers, etc for crushers.

---Unique Procs: Add special proc effects designed only for 2h'er users. Increase durations significantly of previous procs for 2h'ers,etc.

--Change Puncture/Smash/Slice to something with unique procs: For example, Slice can now do all damage as bleed over 10 seconds, Puncture can cause shock-and-disability, causing blindness for X amount of time, and Smash can stun the foe up to 10 seconds, etc.

[Smashbros]

ok just to show my skills:

Weaponry:



Protection:



As you can see my skills arent low (well weaponry skills, and the 2 main protection skills), yet a DW with the same skills will kill faster, and in a duel will destroy me.

i do beat alot of people, and thats due to me having more hp then they do, currently 13,009.

i would like to see 2hers become better, not just to better me, but so that there is another option for people to chose from. Very few people will use 2h over DW, and although i know glitch has said that 2h will never beat DW, we would like it to be more on par with it.

Yes we have an alternate % rate for most skills, and have a higher crit rate, but thats it. the DPS of 1 2h, is not better then 2 1hs. and although we dont expect it to be, it would be nice to be able to compete on par with them, and letting the skills that we lvl talk compared to the weapon we choose.

currently Whip Users are most common, then DW, Casters are slowly coming back to life, then archery and at the low end of the table its 2hers.

just something that would be nice to help the 2hers out, either defensively or offensively i dont mind, aslong as something is done to help 2h weapons out.

[RogueTigeR]

I have highlighted the important skills for a 2H'er.... and you will notice where my skillz lie.

As Dest pointed out, The 2h'er is stuck somewhere b/t defense and offense in everyones (including Glich's) eyes. This is infact not the case thou..... The 2H'er lacks ALLLLLLL defense capabilities. Mirror might be categorized as a protection skill, but it does nothing to protect the user of the 2h'er. The 2h'er is the worse defensive melee/ranged weapon there is.

My vote goes towards something that will not only make the 2h'er feasible in arena/1vs1's, farming, but ALSO in a good boss killing group:

1. Either give mirrored dmg done to the 2h'er a reduced %, allowing the 2H'er to do some of the tanking, instead of a whip using shield user ONLY... or DW whips...

OR

2. Allow the 2h'er to be on well... not on par... but a close 2nd to the DD caster in terms of DPS.... Allow the 2h'er to be the main DPS in the boss kill group.

- My vote goes for more DPS, depending on how defensive this weapon CAN become, I do not want to see a slight adjustment defensively and then glitch says problem solved, because to make this a defensive weapon, you need defensive capabilities equivalent to whips heals, b/c trust me, Ive seen and Done the best a 2h'er can do... whips dmg is just as equivalent to a 2h'ers... but the defensive capability... not lacks... but is absent.... Thats why i say we go all DPS

[RogueTigeR]

[RogueTigeR]

There are many ways to do this..... here are some of the suggestions i will dig up, this is not all, or the best, merely the easiest to find/most recent:

http://forums.nodiatis.com/forums/sh...0&postcount=22

http://forums.nodiatis.com/forums/sh...1&postcount=14
http://forums.nodiatis.com/forums/sh...79&postcount=1
http://forums.nodiatis.com/forums/sh...95&postcount=1
http://forums.nodiatis.com/forums/sh...50&postcount=1

Totally agree with Desctruction..
2H'ers deserve better treatment, and archers also!
It's ridiculous that archers need to use shield and whips!
Why would they? It's simply not their profession.
They should hit really hard or really fast... either way it must be changed!
I tried 2H slash as well, and what can I say, it was sucks..
The damage was okay, but the delay was too much, not to mention if I missed:S
So I'm really looking forward to a positive change where archers and 2H'ers are equal to DW'ers Bm's and casters!!

Cheers

[Smashbros]

Originally Posted by Atesz

Totally agree with Desctruction..
2H'ers deserve better treatment, and archers also!
It's ridiculous that archers need to use shield and whips!
Why would they? It's simply not their profession.
They should hit really hard or really fast... either way it must be changed!
I tried 2H slash as well, and what can I say, it was sucks..
The damage was okay, but the delay was too much, not to mention if I missed:S
So I'm really looking forward to a positive change where archers and 2H'ers are equal to DW'ers Bm's and casters!!

Cheers

ok quite simply, GTFO, go cry about archery elsewhere. this thread is about 2h users, since archery isnt a 2h weapon, GTFO

[Huggles]

Sorry to be the one to say this. 2H Weapons and Bows have their place, and it is not in the hands of a capped player. And by the way casters are OP, so when I say that 2H and Bows are underpowered, I am comparing them to 1H Weapons. Comparing them to Staves would be akin to comparing a pistol and a cannon. And not a glass cannon either.

2H Weapons have a higher DPS than a 1H counterpart of the same level. However, for capped players with 100 or nearly 100 Dual Wield, the DPS of 1H weapons is doubled, far exceeding that of a 1H Weapon.

The same goes for Bows. At low-mid levels, they reign superior over all weapon disciplines. However, they have no skills that significantly increase damage the way 1H weapons do.


Why is this? It is because the place for 2H Weapons and Bows is at lower levels, where Dual Wielders have exceptionally high delay, because of a low Dual Wielding skill.

I understand why Glitchless has done this, though I do not agree with it.

Instead of adding more skills, the way that these skills affect damage need to be changed.

(Numbers to back up my claims coming soon.)

[Smashbros]

huggels an easy way to fix the problem, add a skill thats of a higher tier, that way it only effects capped players, where you say the problem is.

[Conqueror]

Calm down Smash.

He was mainly talking about 2 handed weapons.

Originally Posted by Atesz

Totally agree with Desctruction..
2H'ers deserve better treatment, and archers also!
It's ridiculous that archers need to use shield and whips!
Why would they? It's simply not their profession.
They should hit really hard or really fast... either way it must be changed!
I tried 2H slash as well, and what can I say, it was sucks..
The damage was okay, but the delay was too much, not to mention if I missed:S
So I'm really looking forward to a positive change where archers and 2H'ers are equal to DW'ers Bm's and casters!!

Cheers

No one disagreed with the original premise and so there is no need to start a war.

[RogueTigeR]

Everything already said aside, there IS a problem w/ 2H'ers... it lies in this FALSE scenario:

2H'ed weapons are a mix b/t decent DPS and good defense.

L> Mirrored Blade defensively makes up for a not so good DPS

Problems with this scenario:

• 2H'ed weapons are NOT defensive, and have less than par DPS. The ONLY defensive skill given to them is Parry
• Mirrored Blade is NOT defensive, it in no way shape or form protects the individual using the 2H'er
• Mirrored Blade was recently nerfed (Self Preservation) therein nerfing 2h'ed weapons

Edit:
Lets take a look at what a 2h'er is missing out on:
Staves (the 2h'ers dirty dirty cousin) :regen rates, mana/energy use, gem haste, gem auto start in play, parry, etc
DW melee: waaay better DPS, more consistent and therefore smoother/dependable dmg (2-4 hits vs 1-2), dual parry, parry
whips: greeeeat heals, u think the heals were good.. well guess what ... their (whip+pets) dmg outdoes their heals, stun,growl, ability to double crit dmg (Wound), parry, dual parry (if applicable)
Shield: block, parry, dual parry, deflective shield, bash, testudo

VS

2H'er: parry, higher % for crit, mirror a % of Dmg back(skill for foe to lessen this dmg)

[Whiskeywarrior]

TBH IMO, I'd like to see 2H as slower (higher delay) weapons that do very heavy damage (kinda like they should irl). Seems like most high level 2H's weapons are indeed slow, but don't really do a whole lot of damage

Would be cool to see 2H get a skill where they can hit up to 3 opponents in one swing: call it "Cleave" or something. Very handy for group duels or arena I'd say.

That skill wouldn't really help in 1 vs 1 duels or PVE though

Speaking of defensive skills, maybe give 2H's users something that would work similar to a "half" parry. A skill that would allow a 2H weapon to reduce damage done to them on a melee attack to be reduced by half or 25% or something. At skill 100 say, it would occur on 25% of all incoming melee attacks, and would reduce their damage by 25% (I'm bad with numbers/balancing: someone else can work out good values hehe). This would not count as a parry though, it would be called something else lol.

Sorry if this post isn't well thought out, haven't had my morning coffee yet.

Yep. Tried the 2H epic 53 slasher when I got one as a drop.. There seemed to briefly be a sweet spot for a few levels, where I could almost do as much damage as my dw bca's, and do decently in duels.. once I had gotten 2H skills to level. it faded quickly, and by level 60 had given up on the experiment. Never bothered to use the 2H in arena. Sold it to the store.

Ah well, fun for a time, but ultimately a failed experiment that cost me the difference between what I could have gotten on AH and the sell-to-store price... maybe 100k or more, plus the trophs and stats exp dropped into the 2H skills. Glad i tried it..not going back.

[Glitchless]

2 handers probably do need a dps buff, we will be looking into it shortly.

[Migleyy]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

2 handers probably do need a dps buff, we will be looking into it shortly.

probably?

While we're discussing the 2hander status. Does anybody else think the Eternity's Edge (99 2hs) "special" seems a bit out of line with the rest of the items. Everything else adds slows, stuns, debuffs, or damage. The Eternity's Edge is a 10% self haste aura.... which effectively makes this a 29 speed weapon, rather than a 32 speed weapon. I'd like to see a different proc on it more in line with other weapon types... even if it was a melee haste aura for the group might make it more useful in arena/boss fights...

[Destruction]

Originally Posted by Charnas

While we're discussing the 2hander status. Does anybody else think the Eternity's Edge (99 2hs) "special" seems a bit out of line with the rest of the items. Everything else adds slows, stuns, debuffs, or damage. The Eternity's Edge is a 10% self haste aura.... which effectively makes this a 29 speed weapon, rather than a 32 speed weapon. I'd like to see a different proc on it more in line with other weapon types... even if it was a melee haste aura for the group might make it more useful in arena/boss fights...

Ask the users of the wep, but in my mind yes, it should be a different proc..

EDIT:I just spoke with Beldaron, who doesn't have a forum accounrt, about the Epic Slasher 2h'er user. Here is exactly his words concerning the weapon:

"i don't mind it but was disapointing to see it get chopped compaired to what it was"

"i think it should stack with Wm proc [CA?]"

[hotshot64]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

2 handers probably do need a dps buff, we will be looking into it shortly.

Another buff. I have failed you father!

[angamaite]

Thanks for articulate discussion of the 2 hander situation Destruction, Smash, Rogue and co.

Thanks for looking into DPS of 2 hand weapons Glitch.