Whip Nerf Poll

[Shadowfx]

Originally Posted by Cathrine

I see a plethora of Casters hitting for 5k+ on crits. No Melee build dose 5k+ in one shot.

As it is, yes, casters can Double cast for 5k; however, your post above made it seem as if it were a single cast of which can't happen. Only those casters with the 90+ gems can achieve such numbers as well, so that alone limits the amount of casters out there that can do it.

The significant decrease in hp that we are allowed to be able to achieve such hits is what is called balance. Casters don't get the benefit of many protection skills. We have parry, mirror blade, and combat recovery. That is all. Any good shield user can cripple a caster with deflective shield. I don't think that many duel wielders can take on a caster without a shield, BUT that is what we call "options." If you wish to be a melee fighter, as they are easier to build (I have both a capped caster and a melee fighter and the melee fighter is WAY easier to make and faster too) that is your choice. But casters are pretty much balanced in the PvP arena. We can hit hard, but not last long. Ask a few of the capped out casters how they fair against capped out melee users and you will see that "luck" more than any else determines if a caster wins or loses. If I start battles with nothing but manabursts and invigorates then I am at a sever disadvantage to a melee user who can hit from the start.

While there are ways to limit the number of slots in your gem pouch, they are expensive. It mostly comes down to luck with a caster as to what gems we get out when we get them. Nothing more to it.

And when it comes to whip users fighting casters, ever heard of the skill "growl?" I have fought many a whip user and don't connect on most of my casts even with a very high Cnc level. Casters can do a lot of damage, but there are skills in place to balance it out. If you lose repeatedly to caster, try raising your skills. It could be YOUR build and not the game that is the problem.

[Marianojoey]

Both Dest and Poopoo had it right. Don't nerf, make skills available to other builds (like some of the magical skills are usefull for not staves users).

[Vhazar]

I would like to see simple solution like for stun, mesm, daze - aura. Pet slow aura. Pet slow percentage yet to be figured.

Edit: or better just only pet heal mitigation aura, because total slow will lower bm's dps.

[Gurnison]

I say no to nerf.

In general I don't like nerfs to ANY build after a large number of people have put lots of points into that build. If an imbalance can be caught early and fixed, then fine. After it's gone this long, the best solution is to find a way for other build types to catch up.

When an imbalance like this comes up, the best solution would be to look to the future of the game in regard to other build types rather than a nerf at some static point in time. Let the whip users have their time at the top. In the future another build can have their moment of glory.

One problem is that we spend so much time at cap. From the beginning of the game we knew that some builds were strong at different points in the game, and some builds would level faster. That's fine. But with so many players spending almost the entire game at cap, I feel it should be more balanced at cap. The time it takes to get there is no longer very important.

I know, it sounds like I contradicted myself. I think all classes/builds should be balanced at cap. But we don't have that and I don't like retroactive nerfs. So the next best solution is to let the whippers (and casters?) have their moment, and plan on passing the top spot to other builds in the future.

Originally Posted by Shadowfx

I agree with giving non-whip users the benefits of Fire & Ice but all this "nerf" casters is pissing me off... YES casters can do a tremendous amount of damage in one hit BUT caster CANNOT use a shield or bow and quiver for more enchants like melee users can. A caster's best defense is the offense they have been given. Caster's are not OP'd in PvP against ANYONE with a descent defense skill. Furthermore, build a capped out caster and see what it takes to be able to pull off the 2k+ hits... PS NO CASTER CAN CRIT FOR OVER 5K... NONE OF THEM. If you saw what it took to get an even decent caster at the current cap you would probably quit halfway through.

i use skills vs magic damge, also auras and gems vs them... plus the % bonus prevent on pets.. and i had lost to lot of casters, when they lose its just a 'bad draw' they cant make one hit 5k, but they can double cast 3k each...

yes pass the top on to adventureres next make tickle over 9000% more effective in may

[Shadowfx]

Aph I agree with you that casters are powerful, and no it's not always a "bad draw" however nice that excuse is. My build is not that great, and I lose to a LOT of capped toons, whip users or not. But I think that there is a good balance against casters. I cannot beat you 1 vs 1 and I am a caster. A lot has to do with the builds that people have. Casters like Kyron, Sanlucifer, and Neo have 90+ gems. THAT alone is why they can crit for that high. Your skills outwiegh mine, but maybe not theirs. All I really think is that you should not punish a group (whip users included) for making a good toon. I am not crying that I can't beat a whip user so nerf them, don't get me wrong. I think that BM skills should be more spread out amongst non-whip users, but that's all. The rest is up to those who farm and where THEY put the trophies.

[adino]

My alt Ulerd is a bm. imo any nerf on whips should not include bm's since it is the weapon of choice for their class.

[Mangayatay]

if this really happens..it means resignation or less TC purchase to comatose playing time in NOD time to look back strategic games. totally off the hook NOD-wise

[Sapreaver]

if you lower our heals can you raise whip damage a bit.

its funny when people cry about how they dont want a nerf cuz of much "time" they've spent building a whip user....this time last year those same people were crying about how much time they spend building their crusher char or their slasher char.

Since the redistribute option came out the capped players have been able to completely redistrubute stats to test and find out which build is the strongest for most PVP and PVE situations. There is a reason when I inspect half the capped players in towns they all have whip builds. Even without the BM buff its still OP compared to most other builds.

Personally I will never use whips because I have a warrior, a ranger and a warlock. Imagine Arnold Schwarzenegger in Conan with dual whips....yea need I say more. Not gonna happen for me and shouldnt happen in an RPG. warriors should have the best build possible with equiping slashers or crushers, not whips.

Personally i have not leveled any of the BM or whip user skills. I propose to make those skills that make using whips OP, only available to BM's and not any other classes. On that same note make more skills "Class" based only. Even to the point where some skills will not even show up in the list if the char is not of the Class that the skills are supposed to be used for.

Adino brought up a good point. Whip skills really are for BMs. BMs should be using whips from necessity, anyone else using them is optional. I'd let the BMs keep their full skills, maybe reduce their pet healing by 15-20%. Anyone else, penalize their using BM skills, and reduce pet healing by 50% at least.

I don't recall ever seeing Raistlin using a whip, nor Conan (in the books).

And btw, fixing the problem by upping everyone else's skills is not fixing the problem, but creating future problems that lead back to this same type of argument.

[Gracy]

Without whips u might as well kill the beastmaster class

pfffft, if this happens, i personally will switch to crush (the next OPable build)
or 2h (which jeff keeps hinting is the path he wants you to follow)

Both of these are easy to get OP in and can crit very high.

Originally by palehorserider
Whip users also use more skill so that makes the extra power fare. The more skill the more power! The planning [learning skills}and money into 2 chars that are whip users will have been for nothing. OP players have moved toward whips making whip appear stronger. Please don't do this.

i agree

[deltafromfi]

Originally Posted by Shadowfx

Aph I agree with you that casters are powerful, and no it's not always a "bad draw" however nice that excuse is. My build is not that great, and I lose to a LOT of capped toons, whip users or not. But I think that there is a good balance against casters. I cannot beat you 1 vs 1 and I am a caster. A lot has to do with the builds that people have. Casters like Kyron, Sanlucifer, and Neo have 90+ gems. THAT alone is why they can crit for that high. Your skills outwiegh mine, but maybe not theirs. All I really think is that you should not punish a group (whip users included) for making a good toon. I am not crying that I can't beat a whip user so nerf them, don't get me wrong. I think that BM skills should be more spread out amongst non-whip users, but that's all. The rest is up to those who farm and where THEY put the trophies.

thay use lev 99 red that hit for huge and some have lev 100 (white Justneo) gems or 98 black and combination of those like red and black/white uses both mana and nrg

also casters have basigly weak defence making them to be fast killed in both pvp and pvm. insted casters have heavy damage as getting all out as fast as possible or recover for mins or even 10's

bm skills are lot of easyer to get pass 89 hell than magic skills and there are more needed skills for casters than bm's have

also lets take an look on cost of gear mine for example and bm as 2nd
bm:2x 74 whips ~ 2.4m any pet epic if possible
caster: staff below 200k flame call r8 500k 4x berali and 4x derinium 400k and lacyly 400k dd gems 350k/1 for my r17 epics (2)= 700k r18 recast 3 tc and then others that is long to say but araund 20k for most and like 50k for invigorate/mana catrips

shortly my gems are almost 3m and those need to be upgraded more shorter time than whips well I will need lev 90 to red to sell that flame call thought but it will last some time

whips easy once bought gems hard need update many times and to be op caster needs like 15 skills that are must to really make any damage

think about it casters need to spend lot of more to gems and those recastables are expencive as thay are really wanted good r18 will sell easyly more than 81 slasher that might be most nearest epic item for those and there is no anyone that can graft those yet in my know

[Nemesiss]

im glad this is finaly noticed by glitch despite my constant ranting... i think a solution would be to lower the crazy heal percentage, and make strikethrough work for growl. most of you just dont want this to happen cause you dropped your main weps for whips and focused on bm stuff cause you know they are OP and will just be butthurt.

[Jonsboyfriend]

there is no good option to vote on in this poll.. Just from the wording of the poll choices, it seems jeff is already prone to a nerf..

Whippers are not the beat all players in Nod.. *ahem* casters *ahem*.. it seems that most professions have their upside and downside..
instead of nerfing whippers, how bout buffing slashers? or piercer?

casters do Uber damge
whippers get uber heals
crushers can do more damage than whippers
piercers still suck balls for pvp
archers were nerfed when the cap was raised.

[Sapreaver]

Originally Posted by nemesiss

im glad this is finaly noticed by glitch despite my constant ranting... I think a solution would be to lower the crazy heal percentage, and make strikethrough work for growl. Most of you just dont want this to happen cause you dropped your main weps for whips and focused on bm stuff cause you know they are op and will just be butthurt.

qft

[thatperson]

casters arent OP i can say that from a non caster PoV build anti caster and the caster will lose

@aphoom the reason is simple u employ only 1 of the many anti caster options that are out there try using a shield next time ...try 2H....



now to get this thread back on topic i voted for #2 but as i thought about it i realized this is a moment where a buff to others cant outweigh the need of a nerf so i vote that F&I gets reduced to 75% max (1% per lvl til 50 and .5% after)

Originally Posted by Jonsboyfriend

there is no good option to vote on in this poll.. Just from the wording of the poll choices, it seems jeff is already prone to a nerf..

Whippers are not the beat all players in Nod.. *ahem* casters *ahem*.. it seems that most professions have their upside and downside..
instead of nerfing whippers, how bout buffing slashers? or piercer?

casters do Uber damge
whippers get uber heals
crushers can do more damage than whippers
piercers still suck balls for pvp
archers were nerfed when the cap was raised.

casters arent the beat all
yes casters do uber damage
yes whippers get uber heals (why dont u try to calculate the damage from the pets into their damage and u see that thats uber also)
crushers do about same damage as whippers with both of the best types weapons
piercers may suck but do they suck enough that after 10 minutes they shouldnt even be able to touch an afk whipper?

[Destruction]

Make Pets killable, or buff other types of fighting (e.g., crush/slash/piercer,bow), etc.